Newts or salamanders?

We are starting to stock the 400 gallon fish tank we've been building and need some advice. We are going to have an island in the middle (it will measure about 24"x15"), but we are trying to stay away from soil (we can't figure out a way to contain the soil so it won't muddy the water). My question is, (a) can we have a spotted salamander with these conditions and what else do we need specially for him? (b) can I have a couple eastern newts in there as well, and what about frogs. I know mixing is frowned upon, but I am working with a 400 gallon tank that measures 10'x3'x2'. What can I do?

Vicki, you need to build a bowl and use aquarium sealant to keep water from infiltrating the soil.

No, spotted salamanders are completely terrestrial. If you put it in a large water tank, it will most likely drown. They only go into the water during breeding.

If you have a large tank that is suitably set up (say such as an eastern forest), you can mix species from the same range. HOWEVER, the tank must be large (here it is), and you must provide hiding spaces for all the critters. Make sure they're fed well.

The island we are building has roughly the same dimensions as a ten gallon tank, if not bigger. The salamander would not have enough room here, or is it because it is an island that the salamander could not stay out of the water?

When a newt/sal gets in the water and wants to get out, the usual behavior is for the animal to swim frantically along the SIDES of the tank. If this spotted sal fell in the water, it could very well drown doing this, being unable to find the island. In fact, with the island in the center, almost any animal would have trouble finding it.

Even though the tank is huge, if it's mostly water I wouldn't recommend any terrestrial species. What kind of frogs were you thinking about? In terms of mixing, eastern newts are fairly small and could be eaten by many kinds of frogs. As a general comment, I would say that the concept of a "community tank" can work for fish, but not for amphibians.

400 gallons seems way to big for newts. If properly planted you may hardly see them, and feeding is going to be real interesting if you want to use live food and monitor it.

Are you not putting fish in here or did I miss something? You cant put newts and fish together if you are planing on haveing fish bigger then whiteclouds.

just an idea, but if the tank was partitioned nicely, you could have several species without worring of them eating each other.

I'm confused. I have read a number of postings and even seen pictures of the same kind of setup I'm talking about, just on a smaller scale. In fact, don't a lot of people just use floating logs or bark for a crawl out, which wouldn't necessarily be along the sides of the tank.

Included in my tank design are two very large sections of driftwood, made up of 5 large separate pieces, that stick out of the water. We plan to connect one side of the island to the driftwood via a bridge. Would this enhance the newts ability to crawl out? I can understand the reasoning for the sals and I don't want them to drown, so we will omit those.

As for the frogs, I was thinking of the dwarf aquarium frog or tree frogs.

It could be very difficult to maintain anurans and caudates in the same habitat because of the difference in temperature the different family's require. Newts need it cool, but frogs need it warm. For most species of newts and frogs, I think the temp requirements are different enough that you couldn't find a "happy medium." One species or both would be stressed due to inappropriate temperature, and stress can lead to illness and death. Also dwarf frogs are small enough I think they could be eaten or at least harassed by the newts, and in turn the newts could be harassed and eaten by the tree frogs.
As far as the island, I think most aquatic newts could utilize it - indeed, floating islands are mostly what I use in both my Cynops and Pachytriton tanks, with some sunken drift wood breaking the surface to act as a haul out area also. I think the trouble of drowning comes in with the terrestrial species and their habit of swimming along the sides in a panic just as Jennifer has said. But with all that drift wood, I think it would be easy to make sure some of it broke the surface along the sides of the tank.
Good luck with your tank and I hope you are able to get all the logistics figured out. When you have it up and running, it would be great to have updates and a few pics as well.
Heather

I agree, I'd like to see photos of the tank. Then I think it would be easier to speculate on what species would find it agreeable. What temperature (winter/summer) are you thinking it will be? This could be a limiting factor.

I have had newt tanks with an island in the center, but there is always some other platform or plants along the edge too.

Ok, here's the pic. I'll try to get a better one soon (I took this with my cell). The space in the middle is for the island. Either end is filled with driftwood and plants. What we are trying to do with this tank is to make it as natural as it can be, but still have enough to interest the kids. I would like the temp to be around 70, but my counterpart would like it to be around 75. He wants to be able to put frogs and newts or salamanders in this tank, but i keep telling him that 75 won't work for that. We have freshwater tropical fish in there that could easily withstand temps in the low 70's, but he doesn't want to drop it below 75. Now you see my dilemma. If we forget about the newts (too hot for them) would the dwarf frogs work with the sal?

Vicki, you're not going to be able to put terrestrial salamanders in there. In all likelyhood, they'll drown. They don't know how to swim, and only enter the water for short periods during breeding season. Also, all newts are salamanders. Salamanders (all of them, including newts) need to have their temperature requirements met. For most 'pet' species, this is ideally under 70. If the tank has to stay above 75, then you should forget caudates. There are many aquatic frogs and fish that would do fine in a setup like that.

And once again, you can't newts and fish together. I wouldn't even mess around with fish and those disposable dwarf frogs.

I would just put some nice big fish in there and be done with that tank, get a 20 long for some newts.

Really, i know what you are trying to do, get a ecosystem of newts and land dwelling salamanders and all kinds of diffrent species together but there will be death involved no matter how you work the angles, see this http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Mixing_disasters.shtml

Show me a body of water with fish and salamanders in it the same time and I will show you a guy fishing

Ok, I probably should have mentioned that the island isn't in there yet, we are waiting for the supports to come. But I think I mentioned that in an earlier post.

But I really don't think you truly understand what I'm trying to do. I can't just throw some big fish in there and start another tank, where am i going to put that tank. This tank is 400 gallons and in the middle of a hallway. We brought an independent company (they work out of a reputable aquarium store) in to convert this thing to a vivarium and they had a design for us that included caudates. But they were lagging and the school officials want it done so we took over. Why would this company design something that couldn't be done when we have been doing business with them for years?

I don't want newts <u> and </u>salamanders <u>and</u> frogs <u>and</u> fish. What we really want is fish and frogs in the water and some different kind of terrestrial species on land. I understand what you all are saying and have pretty much forgotten about having newts in there. Although I have had a newt for two years (somebody else had it before me) that came with two small guppies that it lived with for at least 3 years with no incidence.

We have decided to lower the temp significantly to about 72 but the heater is not cooperating so all of this may be futile.

I just came here for design ideas since nobody seems to be on that forum, ever. But since you and the designers seem to be contradicting each other I really don't know what to do. Some of you are even contradicting each other. Joan said that we could mix species if it was large enough and had enough hiding spots, but Jeff says no way. So thank you for your time and advice, but forget it, we'll figure it out.

Vicki, although you are having a bad attitude about this, I understand your frustration.
...that newt that lived for three years?...many newts live 25 years in captivity. Three years is a shortened life.

Most "designers" want your money so that they can design a tank, whereas the people on here know about caudates.

Aquarium designers vs. people with caudate experience...your call I suppose.

Also, guppies vs. a 400 gallon tank of fish is not quite equal.

Salamanders are TERRESTRIAL. You cannot put them on an island and expect them to remain on that island. They will go into the water, they will freak out, and they will drown.

As for my previous newt, I have no idea how long it lived before I inherited it. I was told that the fish were just added a short time before I got the newt, not that it only lived for three years but that the fish had been there for three years.

I <u>don't</u> want to knowingly put any animal at risk, but am confused by all the information I've been gathering.
For example, Joan, you originally said that mixing species would not be a problem as long as the environmental requirements were the same. Maybe I should have asked you what species you meant. Now, forget for a moment what the temp of my tank is and what species I'm thinking about and listen to the advice I've been getting.

Then, Joan you said "If the tank has to stay above 75, then you should forget caudates. <u>There are many aquatic frogs and fish that would do fine in a setup like that</u>."

But then Jeff said "And once again, you can't newts and fish together. <u>I wouldn't even mess around with fish and those disposable dwarf frogs. I would just put some nice big fish in there and be done with that tank, get a 20 long for some newts.</u>

As for the salamanders:
Heather says: "I think the trouble of drowning comes in with the terrestrial species and their habit of swimming along the sides in a panic just as Jennifer has said. <u>But with all that drift wood, I think it would be easy to make sure some of it broke the surface along the sides of the tank</u>."

I don't mean to have an attitude, I am just really frustrated. Probably mostly at the store that put this vivarium idea in our heads. If we knew it would be just frogs and fish we wouldn't have had to do a years worth of preparation. I can't see why they would try to rip us off when we already give them <u>a lot</u> of business and would be holding them accountable if anything were to go wrong.

I really do appreciate your time and effort. I just really need somebody to tell me what to do, a definitive answer is what I'm looking for.

I said if you had a large enough enclosure, you could mix animals from a similar habitat and geographic area. In a 400 gallon tank, I wouldn't hesitate to set up a small pond community, or a small forest community. But you cannot set up a pond AND a forest community.

Almost all caudate species in habit fishless waters. You can't set up a tank with fish and newts, as someone's going to get eaten/poisoned. You can't set up salamanders in an aquatic tank; someone will drown REGARDLESS of how much driftwood you have. Salamanders are forest-dwelling species, not pond-dwelling. You can't set them up in an aquatic tank.

You can't keep caudates (newts and salamanders) in a setup that warm. They'll not thrive, and probably eventually die.

As for clawed frogs or dwarf frogs, I've never kept them, so I don't know if you can mix them with fish or not. I would imagine the same holds true for them as for caudates: someone's going to be eaten or poisoned.

They're probably NOT trying to rip you off. Most pet stores know next to nothing about caudates. They'll tell you "Sure, you can keep firebelly newts at 80 in a tropical fish tank with no land". They just want your money. And if your animals die, they get MORE money when you come back to buy new ones. Now, this shop may be reputable, but that doesn't mean they know everything about every animal.

The type of setup you want to do just will not work with caudates. You can't do it. You need to choose between fish, aquatic newts, or terrestrial salamanders. You can't mix them how you want to.

With a relatively complex and big setup as you are planning, you will always find many different opinions when discussing it on a forum like this. All people here mean well but misunderstandings are easy.

My first question to you is:
Why not ask the people who helped designed the setup which species they intended to put into it?

As for telling you what to do, we can't. At best we can give advice. You need to make your own choices in the end.

I can try to give you some more advice, perhaps clarify some of the previous advice.. here goes.

1. Mixing species can work, but there are risks.
The page mixing disasters mentioned by Jeff gives you an idea of what can go wrong. A lot of people decide to not mix species after reading it.

2. Temperature is a critical factor, all caudata (salamanders & newts) like it cool. They tend to get stressed when temps are consistently over 70F, stop eating and die ultimately.

3. Terrestrial salamanders are kinda stupid when they fall into the water. The drift wood along the sides of the tank may help them but chances are they'll hang next to the drift wood clawing at the glass. Similar to a small child being able to drown in a few inches of water.

You have a wonderful big setup there.
If I had to fill it, I'd pick Taricha granulosa as the main species. They're active friendly newts. They spend time both in the water and on land. It's a care-free species, meaning they're not afraid while in or near the water. They're likely show themselves and not hide all the time.
You can combine them with nicely colorful guppies for example.

I have no experience with frogs, so I cannot provide you with any advice there. Taricha are a big species but eat relatively small food. They're not aggressive. Just poisonous when eaten by others! However, they probably don't excrete much poison into the water, as my guppies are happily breeding there.

Good luck with your setup, it has great potential!

Vicki,

At the risk of giving more advice that could be labled as confusing, here I go. The reason I have been saying stay away from caudates, newts, sals, and everythign but fish is due to their saftey first, but also for this reason, you may have nothing to look at but plants. lets say for arguments sake that you got the temp down, took out most of the water, put in some sizable land spaces, and planted it up nice with moss and the whole 9 yards. now you put your salamanders in there and watch them walk around for a few minutes. The phone rings, and when you get back, you see only plants, dirt and possibly some crickets. This is the exiteing world of salamanders. they will be hidden almost all the time, and you will probably have to dig them out to feed them if they decide they really like the setup. I can just see the post "my tiger salamander is hiding all the time, what should I do?"

the aqaurium place told you there would be no problems converting that thing into a vivirium cause there isn't, only the animals that would be suitible were probably not discussed, adn they felt that you would stick something in it no matter what. what people who work at fish stores don't seem to grasp, is that frogs and salamanders are agressive preditors and will eat anything they can fit in there mouths, and that most salamanders have some form of poison. When it all comes down to it, keeping newts and frogs and fish together is like keeping sharks and alligators together.

I say go with newts, so here is what I would do. If i had your setup, and sometimes i wish i had a huge setup to play with, I would build a divider down 1/3 of it that was about 6 inches tall, and put small holes in it so that water coudl get through. I would do another divider down the other size that was just as tall and only about 7 inches from the back. I would then put gravel down the center, creating water areas on both sides. I would then set up the flow to moce through the gravel in the center to create a wet/dry filter system. The center would be planted very densly with plants and lots and lots of java moss, mabye with a sprayer set up to mist the area once every 4 hours. This setup would be perfect for newts, adn you could have alot of them, perhaps 8 taricha granulosa as ester sugested, which would be my first choice as well. You will see them, and they will look happy.

This setup would be spectacular, and allthough the dementions may need adjusting, some plexieglass and silicone is all you would really need, with a drill to make the holes so the water to flow through, and bio-balls would be even better in the bottom of the middle, but not look as good.

So thats the best advice i can give you, and with that design you could have whitecloud minnows and not really worry about the waste after the tank is cycled.

What filter system was this fish place trying to set up? thats a real good question i am dying to hear.

So in all we have good advice for you, its just we may not explain it through at times.

I really hope this helps, and i can draw a picture of that setup if you would like. (I hope you try it, it would be sweet and very effective)


(Message edited by newtsrfun on October 06, 2006)

Hi Vikki, this is all good advice but as Ester points out everyone will have different opinions about what you should do. With community enclosures there are certain obvious considerations when it come to environmental requirements, enclosure design and species compatibility. I personally would have chosen the inhabitants and designed the enclosure around their needs rather than the other way round.

Rather than experiment with the unknown and risk upsetting the kids (as Billy the frog tries to eat Freddy the newt whilst getting his toes nibbled off by a fish) I would look for examples of community tanks that are proven to work. If I remember right Ed's zoo has an enclosure with cynops, bombina and fish that's been running for a few years. Other zoos may have other successful community enclosures and might be a good place to do some research.

I would go as simple as possible. I would fill the tank maybe half full (how tall is a 400 gallon tank?!) and have a bare bottome with lots of floating live plants and driftwood. I would put in taricha granulosa and several rams horn snails. If you want fish, both guppies and white clouds would make good choices, as was previously stated.

Some people like to go with plexiglass and silicone and all that jazz, but I'm not that creative yet. Plus, I think what I do is easier to take care of.

Here's a link to a page on filtration for caudate enclosures. It's important that the filter you choose (if you choose to include newts in your setup) is completely inside the tank so that you can have a secure lid with no holes for anyone to crawl out of.

http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/filters.shtml