This took a long time

[josh]

this is a tank ive been working on for a long time. its still not done. this pic is a little out dated. the tank looks better now. i will get some more recent photos soon.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/29824.jpg

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/29825.jpg

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/29826.jpg

(Message edited by mike_g on January 25, 2005)

[mark]

Looks awesome, what size it? what you keep in there? What you use as walls?

[josh]

well, right now, there is nothing in that tank. i did have my dart frogs in there, but i gave the frogs to my girlfriend. but im moving in with my girlfriend this weekend...so the frogs get their tank back. the 'false background' is just great stuff expandable foam. you get any rocks or logs you want in the background. lay the aquarium on its backside. lay the logs and rocks the way you want them... then just start spraying foam around the logs and rocks and all across the back of the aquarium. dont spray too much however. just spray an inch or so layer onto it. the stuff expands GREATLY!!! you can always use a razor blade to trim the foam once it hardens. oh.. dont touch the foam when its wet. it takes forever to get it off your hands. the substrate on the foam is just peat. there is a glue called Weldbond that is non toxic and water resistant. just mix the glue with the peat and water till its a mud consistency. make sure there is enough glue. squeeze the peat and if it runs white and thin, its perfect. with the aquarium still on its back, you just paste the peat on there. it takes about a week or so to dry completely depending on temp. after that, add plants and whatever else you want. you can also set up false bottoms or a pond area with the same ideas shown in other tanks on the forum. be creative and youll be surprised at what you can do. im working on a c. orientalis tank that is looking good so far.

[josh]

if you put moss in a setup like that, it will take a long time for it to grow onto the false background...but it will. you can speed up the process by using alot of light and completely sealing off the top of the tank (glass cut to fit the top, plastic covered lid) the glass works best. i wouldnt put any caudates in a setup with lights and a completely covered tank tho. it gets hot.. tropical hot. you can also get a pump and rig up a waterfall down the false background comming out of the top or whatever. java moss does really well in these setups and grows fast. it usually takes like 6 months to get a crazy lookin talk out of this, but its worth it

[mark]

Nice set-up you've got there Josh. Is the foam you use non-toxic as well?

[josh]

yes, the foam is non toxic

[alex]

java moss, can i jus place them on driftwoods? (wet) and not totally submerged???

[mark]

Nice, did you get that tecnique from blackjungle.com? I have done this many times, but I just was curious. How do you grow the moss? how do you start it?

[josh]

no, i didnt get it from black jungle. i learned this from some friends of mine in phoenix that breed dart frogs. java moss will grow on any surface in the tank as long as it is moist or wet. other species of moss will grow from spore or eventually start to spread from the clump. if it grows from spore, it takes a long time and looks like green slime algae at first. it eventually grows into the mature form of the moss.

[mark]

Thats cool, you said "other species of moss will grow from spore or eventually start to spread from the clump. " What do you mean the clump? A clump of what? Where do you get the spores? Thanks

[josh]

the clump of moss. the spores will come from the parent moss clump. do a search online to understand more what im talkin about

[mark]

I have done many in the past, and have found little info, that is why I am asking you so much. Thanks though!

[william]

Nice looking setup Josh! What kind of dart frogs are you keeping in there and what size is the tank?

Hey Alex you should start another thread and post it there in the Help section.

[josh]

here is an updated pic of my cage
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30081.jpg
the aquarium is a 25 tall and the frogs i have are d. leucomelas and auratus. im getting some D. ventrimaculatus taht are going in this set up tho.

[josh]

wow, that pic turned out small...... thank you very much by the way william!

[ingmar]

25 tall ?


what is the size of that tank in cm's ?

[mark]

That is awesome, what kind of water feature, or water dish do you have?

[josh]

well, that tank doesnt have a water feature. it did, but i removed it.

[mark]

a, thats cool. I still think it looks awesome, I recently got a free 20 gallon long, and a job! But I think I am going to make that tank into something of what you got. Thanks

[josh]

here are some pics of one im doing now
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30286.jpghttp://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30287.jpg
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30288.jpghttp://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30289.jpg
you can carve pockets into the foam to leave room for planting plants very easily.

[josh]

here is the glue used to mix with the substrate used to coat the foam.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30293.jpghttp://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/30294.jpg

[mark]

Sweet! Keep the pics coming!

[mark]

Any more pics?!

[andy]

Thanks Josh for the great information! You've given me some good ideas for my own setups!

[josh]

your welcome andy! show us some pics when u finnish! good luck man!

[leanne]

Could you post a photo of the brand/type of foam you are using? Thanks! Very inspiringhttp://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/proud.gif

[josh]

sure thing!
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/31414.jpg
be careful with this stuff. it will ruin clothes and carpet. only spray half what you want filled in the aquarium. it expands greatly!

[andy]

I'll let you know how it all goes Josh! I've spent ages on the net trying to get the glue you mention but i think i've found somewhere now. I'm sure there would be an equivalent i could use but as weldbond is tried and tested i'd rather go with that! One other thing, can i use any type of expanding foam or is it a particular type you use?
Thanks again!

[josh]

hey andy, the products on your side of the world have a different name. here is an excellent site that you can get the info from

http://www.frogworld.nl/frogs.html

and this site

http://www.poison-frogs.nl/e03.html

over there, the foam is called PUR foam. the glue there is called flevopol. i hope you get some good use of those sites. good luck man!

[jarid]

Hey Josh I was wondering what are your lighting specs on this tank?

[andy]

Thanks again Josh! I'm getting really into this idea now and cant wait to start the project! One other thing, is the glue and pete mix half and half?
Cheers mate

[josh]

the mix is 1/3 peat, 1/3 water, 1/3 glue or close to that. im not sure if that formula is correct with the flavopol. youll just have to experiment with it. youll want to let it dry for a week or so to make sure its totally dry. as for the lighting, its not a big tank so i just have 3 flourescents on there that are 18". they hang from the cieling and are about 4 or 5 inches from the top of the aquarium. i had glass cut to fit the top perfectly to create a tight seal. the glass is cut just about in half for a lid. works great for dart frogs, but caudates, i would be careful doing this type of lid. course, ive never tried it so im not sure. anyhoo, good luck guys!

[keegan]

Hey that's pretty cool. Thanks for the info josh.

- has anyone tried this technique where it will be submersed? Like for a fish aquarium backdrop, or aquatic/semiaquatic newts?

-has anyone tried taking that stuff out of a tank if you want to change it?

Thanks
Keegan

[keegan]

PS: Hey, that's also built-in insulation to keep your tank cool in the summer! Or prevent heat loss from a tropical tank.

Keeg

[keegan]

Sorry for all the posts... one more question... I noticed on blackjungle that they use black silicone to attach cocobedding (I'm sure peat would be simmilar) to the foam... any thoughts of how this compares to weldbond?

Thanks again
Keegan

[josh]

thanx keegan! the silicon seems like it would be a mess too me. ive never tried it, but its worth a shot. im going to experiment with several other ways of creating the background. as for submerging it in water, its all water proof! you should be fine. ive yet to try it in a newt tank. its all been for dart frogs. good luck and let us know your results!

[keegan]

Cool, I'll give it a go. Maybe I'll compare the costs of silicone vs weldbond before I start. I guess then, you just live with the yellow foam showing on the sides of the tank? ..that seems like the only big advantage of the black silicone. I think the weldbond/peat mix seems like it would give a better cover than peat/coco onTOP of silicone.

Later,
Keegan

[andy]

Hi guys, i've now got hold of some weldbond and will be starting my new set up real soon! (thanks again Josh for the inspiration!)
Keegan, to get around the problem of the foam being visible from the outside i've bought some stuff called fablon, this will be stuck on the outside of the tank on the back and sides.

[andy]

Also Keegan, i was thinking of dong this set up with a friend who keeps fish so we'll soon see if will be ok! My only worry is that the pressure of the water may get behind the foam but then again it does stick real well,we'll see!

[josh]

hey guys, im glad to see you are so stoked on this idea! good luck! ok, what i did to hide the foam on the sides and back of the aquarium is simple. i just took some hobby paints and painte the sides of the aquarium. it works great. as for the foam under water....heres what ive noticed. it doesnt seem to be the pressure from water that lifts it from the glass. it seems to be moisture period. the outer shell of the foam is water proof. but if water gets inside the shell at all, the dried foam inside will start to shrink. this shrinking detaches it from the glass and the foam becomes soft. i thought of a way around this a while ago. i havnt tried it, but you guys may find it useful so you dont have the shrinking problem.buy a tube of silicone and put a heavy layer of silicone on the edges of all the foam once it has cured. this should create a tight seal and prevent water from seaping underneath the foam. once again, i have not tried it so i dont know if this will actually work. good luck guys! lemme know your results.

[andy]

Hi Josh! Well i've just sprayed a load of expanding foam on to the back of one of my tanks and it looks ok, guess it will look more natural when the glue/peat mix goes on. If any one in England wants to do this you can buy weldbond in Hobby craft, these shops are all over the place!
Cheers

[josh]

cool man! what i usually do is find some neat rocks and wood then plan out where everything is going to go and how it will accent eachother. then when u figure that out, foam around the rock or wood and it will stick to the back of the aquarium with no problems. of course, you spray the foam and let it cure while the aquarium is on its back. once cured tho, its strong and will hold rocks and whatnot. good luck!

[alan]

Weldbond = waterproof PVA = Homebase or B&Q

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/31779.jpg

[matt]

Alan, is UniBond Waterproof PVA non-toxic as Weldbond appears to be? http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif

[jarid]

For anyone interested, this page has some DIY tutorials on making similar backgrounds for aquatic setups using great stuff, as well as other materials.

[andy]

Matt, i've been a bought some of the product Alan showed us and yes it says no harmful solvents,waterproof and it dries clear. Sounds like it should do the trick to me! I'll soon be posting a picture of my attempt at creating a set up like Josh,s and yes i agree Josh, it DOES take a long time! the glue peat mix takes forever to dry!

[ben-lee]

Hi all nice work josh its simlar to mine, i have a 70 gallon tank with the same expanding foam back ground with java moss growing out of little pockets i made and put the moss in i also made a water pool IN the back drop so its got like a water fall display (with no water falling) so its got a nice little pool on the back were they can hang out near the lights, and i made a carpet of moss --i used a type of bowl affect under the moss so they attach them selves to each other and not the floor them u can use it as a carpet and make floors / walls with it..hoope this helps Ben

[joeri]

Can you use this combination of glue-water-peat in an aquatic setup as well? Or will he waterproof glue protect the peat so it doesn't spoil the water?

[josh]

im sure you could use it as an aquatic setup. give it a try and let us know! tanins from the peat will still leach into the water, but tanins are good anyways. they help fight fungul and bacterial infection. as for my tank, ive added some new plants and rearranged things a little. im thinking on tearing the whole thing down and starting from scratch. i want to experiment with different background material that will me more nutrient rick...like clay. heres a pic of the tank with new plants
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7618/32166.jpg

[josh]

how do u guys get large pics on here??? it always tells me the pic is too big when i try... im computer illiterate.

[joeri]

In the photo gallery area is a precise description of the size you can upload. Adjust your pictures to that size in paint or other photoshop or...

[josh]

ive tried that, but the photo is either small, or it loses all its sharpness. i use photoshop. the more i try to mess with it, the more pixels i lose

[joeri]

I use paint, but if I want a part of the picture to be detailed I select that part and copy it in a new document. Than I have to resize less or even nothing at all depending on that size of that selected area.
I guess you can do that in photoshop as well, but I don't have that program http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/wink.gif

[devon]

Wow, what a great, easy, Idea!

If I was to do this with an aquatic setup, would the peat discolour the water?

Also, is there a way to remove the foam entirely, if you want to use the aquarium for something else?

[josh]

yes, you can remove the foam completely and the peat will discolor the water. that isnt a bad thing however. tanins in the water will help fight fungul infections

[devon]

Would you still be able to see your newts and fish, though? Or is it just a light yellowy discoloration, still attractive?

[josh]

well, it will turn deep tea colored. but with some water changes, it clears up quite a bit. it will always have the slight tea color, but wont be overwhelming. just give it a try! it kinda looks cool i think

[callum]

Can you post a picture of your c. orientalis tank please. Cheers, Callum.

[charles]

hay josh your tank look soooo cooool!!!

[john]

Perhaps I am thick (like my wife tells me) but did someone say they use the greatstuff foam as a backing under water as well? Do you seal it with silicone first? Does it breakdown eventually? Sorry for the questions. I have used it a few times above water but never went below the false bottom (DBA waterline)

[kara]

I have been inspired!!!! no more cork bark!

[simon]

Fantastic tank, especially like the live moss.

[john]

Update.... I made some peat mixture with water and weldbond and mushed it onto some craggy wood and allowed it to dry for a week. I put in in the water of a clean tank and within a week the peat was soft and the weldbond was leaching into the water. If I poke the mush with my finger it creates a white cloud.

Maybe I did it wrong but the results were pretty clear to me.

[jennifer]

That's unfortunate. Sounds like Weldbond isn't a good idea. I'd suggest that aquarium-safe silicone sealant may be a better substance to use.

[josh]

hey guys, this is josh (the one who started the thread) i have since abandoned the weldbond glue and started using gorilla glue. it is 100% waterproof and i know it works for a fact because i already have used it for water features and ponds inside vivs. it works very very well. the great stuff on the other hand shrinks when it gets wet and will detach from the glass. the best way ive found to solve this problem is to very well silicone a piece of lighting egg crate to the back piece of glass and let it dry over night. then, you can spray with expandable foam and when the foam dries, it adheres to the egg crate. when moisture gets behind the foam and detaches it from the glass, it holds onto the egg crate and remains very sturdy. the gorilla glue will also hold onto the great stuff like a champ! once your great stuff dries, lightly cover the foam and spread (with gloves on) gorilla glue and cover with dry peat or cocoa fiber. now heres the tricky part. the gorilla glue tends to bubble through the peat/cocoa so you have to constantly press it bback down when it bubbles and cover areas that soak through with more peat/cocoa. once it cures, it is water proof and very strong. it can be fully submerged. give it a try. i guarantee you will be satisfied (assuming you did it right) good luck

[ryan]

I'm gonna put some firebelly newts in my 55 gallon. I have some tetras in there but I've done a combo tank before. No problem. I'm going to try using the expanding foam to sculpt and shape, but for a sealant, I'm going to use clear-casting resin. That stuff is water tight and as far as I know, it's not toxuc once it's in the hardened state. Anyone here ever used resin for this type of thing? I know most aquarium ornaments and fixtures are made of resin. I'll try to have some pictures up soon. Thanks Josh; a pure genius.

[jennifer]

Welcome, Ryan,

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Ryan Neal Giovinco on Saturday 18 November 2006 - 06:25 (#POST111519):</font>

I'm gonna put some firebelly newts in my 55 gallon. I have some tetras in there but I've done a combo tank before.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> Did your previous combo tank contain newts? How long did those newts live?

For long-term health, newts will do best if they are cold in winter. Thus for any long period of time, I would say they are not compatible with tetras. Ideally, I would say firebellies should be at around 60F or lower in winter. They can live for 10-20 years or more.

Good luck with your tank! It would be great if you can post photos when it's made (start a new thread).

[rodrigo]

I´ve used silicone and it works great.
You just put the silicone on the foam and add a good quantity of coco peat (for example). Then you press it with your hands to make sure the peat gets glued to the silicone. When it dries out you just remove the excess of peat.
I think the result looks amazing, and as far as i know it´s 100% non toxic and water-proof.
I really like this technic...specially for backgrounds.

oh....amazing tank josh...definitely a professional one.