Help, Green Tree Frog is freaking!!

[andrew]

Yesterday during a regular misting I observed my green tree frog(Hyla cisnerea) jumping all over the place, and then it turned itself on its back in the water area. It quickly turned itself over again and spent the night nudged between the glass and a rock, stuck to the glass like normal. This morning I noticed that my tank was a mess, soil all over the moss, leaves broken off my plants, and general chaos. My tree frog is still alive, but when I went to pick it up, it hugged my finger with its front legs (something it never did before) and its hind legs just hung limp under him. I have seen him use the legs, but not very much. They were very limp.
He is 4 years old, was eating normally, (2 small earthworms yesterevening), and hasnt had a good green color in about 6-9 months. He/she has been olive brown all this time.
What do you guys think is going on?
P.S. he/she has lived with two firebellies for the last four years and they are doing fine and ate the same thing last night, so I dont think its the food. Thanks for any help.

[mark]

Fire bellied (toads I presume)are very toxic. Maybe your tree frog has accidentally bitten one? It's a risky business keeping them together.

I don't know what's wrong with your frog but over the years I have very occasionally seen similar behaviour with captive hylids. In my experience it's normally bad news. A period of hyperactivity and loss of limb control have always led to death with my frogs. Maybe it's a nervous system problem/infection?

[john]

In any case, you should separate the frog from the toads. Like Mark Aartse-Tuyn said, firebelly toads are toxic and so is there urin. If the only source of water you have is the one the toads are in, then it could be poisening that is doing this to your frog. Also, frogs dont live very long 4-8 years or mabye alittle longer. Your frog seems to be showing signs of a dying frog. I am sry to say that it probably wont make it. At any rate, you should separate it from the toads and give a it a peacefull ending. The toads are also at risk if you keep the sick frog in there. Very sry to hear about your frog man. I hope everything works out ok for you.

[andrew]

Thanks guys, these were my thoughts exactly. I've seen this in other hylids too, but its been so long since then I need a second opinion. I bought a little tank to keep it in till the end. I found it today with dirt all over its body and head. But its still alive. Its going to live out the rest of its days in peace.

[andrew]

This was him just two or three weeks ago and the second pic shows him/her a few months ago.http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/24791/33011.jpghttp://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/24791/33012.jpg

[john]

what a cute frog. Was it full grown when you got it.

[andrew]

No it was not, I think it was just shy of an inch, but big enough to not get eaten by the firebellies. Then again, they were small back then too. In any case, it must have been at least inch big. Now its about two inches long. Maybe 2 and a quarter.

[edward]

John,
I have to ask, why did you state that the urine of a FBT is toxic?

Also that average age range is accurate for green tree frogs but some dendrobatids can potentially live into their late teens or possibly into their twentys.

I also strongly suggest keeping those two species seperate.

Ed

[andrew]

I have separated my tree frog from the two bombinas. I have seen him eat, and regain reaction time. I tested his/her ability to react today by just picking it up, its legs are moving and doing everything they can to hang on. He/she is acting almost normal. I think its still a little slugish, and I have not seen it climb on to the glass. So all in all, I think its doing better, but its still far from 100%. I hope it gets better. Maybe the bombanin wasnt strong enough to kill it (is it called bombanin, the toxins bombinas secrete?).

[john]

FBT urine is toxic, as well as there back secretions. Their urine is toxic even to them and that is why it is important to have proper filtration and do water changes often. I stated this because if the water wasnt being filtered properly, the water would be toxic for the frog to drink and might have aided in the strange behavior of the frog. Good to here of the improvement Andrew. Hope he pulls through.

[mark]

I didn't know that their urine was toxic. I'd be interested to know where you read that and what the toxins comprised of. Are they the same toxins that are found in the skin..if so why would the frog excrete these as waste products and risk fouling up it's environment? I would guess that the urine of Bombina is rather unpleasant but not toxic in the same way bombesin/bombinine found in the skin pores is. Interesting to find out though...

[andrew]

I do a water change once or twice a week since the water area is too small to put a filter in. I'm setting up a new viv tomorrow and tonight which will have filtration on a water feature.
The frog is doing much better. Its not slumped over anymore when sleeping, and I saw it climb the glass again the other night. Well, if its still around a month from now, I'll consider it a 98% recovery. 98 and not 100 since what I saw is hard to believe anything that acted like that could recover 100%.

[edward]

Well all urine is toxic due to ammonia but I highly doubt that the toads are actively secreting toxins in the urine as this is not an energetically effective system as these animals synthesize their toxins as opposed to sequestering them ala dart frogs. I have not seen any references to toxin (as in toxins normally found in poison/venom glands not normal metabolic waste products) secretion in urine by amphibians

Ed

[john]

I see. I was told that from members a another forum I was getting info from when I first got the toads. I was told that the urine is toxic even to them and that water changes are a nessasary thing to prevent harm to your toads. I didnt say I was an expert or anything. I only know what the forums and other info tell me.

[edward]

Hi John,
That is because the toads secrete ammonia in thier urine and if the ammonia levels get too high then the levels can reach toxic levels.

Ed

[john]

I see. Thx for the info. Now I know even more stuff. Keep that info coming. WOOHOO! thx again ed.

[andrew]

Well, my tree frog finally died today. I found it slumped over the leaves of my african violet, as if in a human sitting position, you know, belly up. In anycase, I have had it for almost or past 4 years, and the problems began when I started this thread, about March 23rd. Is that a long death or what. Poor froggy. I will miss it. Thanks all for all the help. At least thanks to your suggestions, it lived out its last months in peace.

[john]

I am sry to here that Andrew. I was rooting for the frog and thought all was well having not heard anything in so long. Sry for your loss. Take care.

[andrew]

thanks, He/she did seem to get much better for all that time up until yesterday when suddenly it was dead, in a most strange position too.