Price and WC newts

[Dana]

I took my sons (4, 6, and 8) to a new pet store that specializes in exotics, mostly reptiles and amphibians. I saw some FBNs and noticed they were $19.99 each. I thought that they must be part of a CB program, but they were not. We paid 1/4 of that for ours a year ago and had NO idea they were WC. I was considering giving my babies to this store, should most of them survive as the set-ups were really nice and I have 13 larva at the moment, more eggs. But, I had second thoughts after talking to the employee - then they fed a live mouse to a snapping turtle much to the delight of most of the customers and to the horror of two of my boys - the third was w/ me checking out baby hedgehogs. I suppose I need to be thicker skinned about these things, but it's hard when you're an unofficial animal rescuer. I know things eat other things. My oldest was upset - said that they could opt for frozen mice/rats, etc. The employee kind of laughed that these animals were bred to be food - I guess like the crickets we feed our leopard gecko and tree frog. However, something about seeing an animal they view as a pet being thrown to the wolves, so to speak, didn't sit well with them or me. I'm sure this probably isn't the place for much sympathy on this issue now that I think about it - oh well, this got off the topic that there really needs to be some CB programs for all amphibians out there so they aren't kidnapped by the masses and suffer many, many losses along the way.

Anyway, I really thought the almost $20 price tag hinted that the FBNs were CB - not so.

Dana

[Kaysie]

That's an unfortunate and disheartening story, Dana.

There are many breeders around the globe, thankfully. And this site is dedicated to the propagation of captive bred species, and the cessation of the sale of wild-caught animals, especially those which are mass-collected.

As for you, hit them where it hurts: the pocket book. You could report them to the BBB, or a local animal authority, but I suspect not much will come from it. But pet stores, like all other businesses, thrive on selling you stuff. Don't give them the satisfaction of your continued business.

[Dana]

Don't give them the satisfaction of your continued business.

Kaysie,

It was our first and last time in their store if I can deter my son from wanting a baby hedgehog so badly. We usually rescue and give homes to the abandoned, abused and surrendered domestic animals as we do a lot of work w/ our local wildlife care center. If they have a hedgehog or chinchilla, we'll take him. Sometimes it's more work as they can be so timid, but we're always rewarded.

My oldest's b-day is in two weeks and a hedgehog is high on the wish list, hence our visit to the store which is out of the way for us. It's a new store to us - not in general. I will tell the friends who told me about today's ongoings and I hope they, too, will boycott.

Is it illegal to capture these animals in the wild? Is it at all like the illegal pet trade of Central and South America - birds, iguanas? The stories sicken me - the statistics on exotic parrots that were WC and actually making it, through horrific conditions to the pet store, were so disturbing to me and the boys when we were reading about endangered species last month.

Anyway, I'm here to become more educated on these animals.

Thanks,
Dana

[kate]

I'm in no way supporting this store or their actions, but maybe the higher price tag on the newts is a good thing even if they aren't CB (which most newts in pet stores aren't)...it will probably deter people who don't know how to give the newts the proper care they need from buying them. What I see in the pet stores in my area is people buying the $6 WC newts because they're cheap and then giving them a horrible quality of life, not only hurting the newts they purchase but also contributing to further importation to stock the store's tanks.

[Jacob Bidinger]

Originally Posted by katebutton

I'm in no way supporting this store or their actions, but maybe the higher price tag on the newts is a good thing even if they aren't CB (which most newts in pet stores aren't)...it will probably deter people who don't know how to give the newts the proper care they need from buying them. What I see in the pet stores in my area is people buying the $6 WC newts because they're cheap and then giving them a horrible quality of life, not only hurting the newts they purchase but also contributing to further importation to stock the store's tanks.

I partially agree with this statement, however it's not always the case. True the higher price will deter people from just getting a cheap pet they can forget about in a few days when it's not "cool" any more because it's limbs are rotting off and it's body is bloating. On the other hand, there are plenty of people who wouldn't think twice about spending $20 on an animal they know absolutely nothing about.

In a perfect world w.c. newts wouldn't be in pet stores and everyone keeping them would be breeding for the sole purpose of trading or giving them to other hobbiests. The world is far less than perfect though, there's nothing we can do to stop this other than get newts from breeders or drive the species in question to the point of extinction and then complain about it after the fact.

[Rodrigo]

I agree Jake...but we can only dream xD

Dana, to answer your questions about legality of this WC animals...it´s roughly summarized by where the species comes from. If it´s european, you can be sure it´s an illegally collected animal(we are talking only WC here). If it´s from asia, it´s probably legal.
European and asian species are the most common in the pet-trade. Asian caudates are the vast majority of imports, but as far as i know most/all of them are legal, since the countries of origin allow their capture.
Of course american species that might appear from time to time in the pet-trade are under usa law, and each state will have particular laws against or in favor of different species.

[missvelika]

Its a bit eye opener, I didn't realise there we animals caught from the wild (so naive) but i'll deffina tly be looking to get any pets from a breader from now on

[Joseph S]

Actually, this is how most people and most of us probably started. Must be modern culture but we really don't think of where stuff comes from. People are always shocked when I talk of Florida fish farms, or WC animals(you mean they grow fish on farms?)

[Chris Michaels]

Re Azhael's post: I am pretty sure that the export of most Tylototriton spp. and some Paramesotriton from China is illegal on paper. Does anyone have any solid info on this?

[Rodrigo]

Oh ok chris, thanks for the correction. I was under the impression that most were legal. It saddens me to learn that´s not even the case....

[Jim Hitchcock]

This is an issue we struggle with daily as a retailer.

While our mission is to encourage the hobby of captive-breeding reptiles and amphibians, and we purchase cbb specimens whenever we can, the hobby is not yet at the level that this can be our "bread and butter."

But, on the other hand, my interest in reptiles and amphibians was sparked by the wc anoles vendors always had at the county fair when I was a kid. I think my parents viewed the $1 lizards as dispose-a-pets, and with little husbandry info available, truthfully, they often didn't last long.

So we do sell low-price-point wc animals, but we also talk at length with each customer about its husbandry requirements, and provide a written care sheet with each sale. Without these sales we could not continue, as a business, to promote captive breeding.

Hopefully, if we can spark the interest of a new generation into becoming herptoculturists, at some point there will no longer be a need for wc livestock. In the mean time, I think it's important to offer entry-level hobbyists with an alternative to the vendors I see at reptile expos selling animals that are fresh off the boat, stressed and unhealthy, and not likely to last in the care of an inexperienced keeper.

____
Jim Hitchcock
http://www.rainforeststationpets.com (news blog)

[Joseph S]

jehitch: Great to see a vendors comments on this!

I think anoles and newts are apples and oranges. So far, anoles are still very abundant. They breed and mature quickly. They can stand considerable collecting pressure. Brown anoles? even better they are invasives! Collect them to extinction in FL for all I care. Thus, they are not a bad animal for kids to learn on(despite the fact that caring for them for real is actually quite difficult)

Newts? Well, not much study has been done...but I doubt Paramesitotriton populations grow very fast.

[Jim Hitchcock]

Originally Posted by fishkeeper

jehitch: Great to see a vendors comments on this!

I think anoles and newts are apples and oranges. So far, anoles are still very abundant. They breed and mature quickly. They can stand considerable collecting pressure. Brown anoles? even better they are invasives! Collect them to extinction in FL for all I care. Thus, they are not a bad animal for kids to learn on(despite the fact that caring for them for real is actually quite difficult)

Newts? Well, not much study has been done...but I doubt Paramesitotriton populations grow very fast.

I agree, and we have so far resisted purchasing wc newts. I've been able to get axolotl larvae inexpensively enough that those serve as our low price caudate. They're sturdy as heck, and do well in the hands of novices.

As to brown anoles, I agree as well; we purchase large batches of them from Florida, panacur them, and sell them as feeders for our customers that have lizard-specific snakes. We usually have enough to sell the excess at expos cheaply enough to attract kids away from more exotic wc stock other vendors offer.

[Rodrigo]

Hi Jim, i´m glad to hear that at least you take time to inform your costumers, that´s a lot more than can be said of most pet-shops.
Can i make a suggestion? Pleurodeles waltl xD
If you manage to find some they are a brilliant choice. They are CB, they are rather cheap, they are extremely easy to care for....
I don´t know if you knew about these newts but i think they would make a great option, both for you as a vendor(minimal losses in the shop, minimal returns) and for your costumers.

[Jim Hitchcock]

Originally Posted by azhael

Hi Jim, i´m glad to hear that at least you take time to inform your costumers, that´s a lot more than can be said of most pet-shops.
Can i make a suggestion? Pleurodeles waltl xD
If you manage to find some they are a brilliant choice. They are CB, they are rather cheap, they are extremely easy to care for....
I don´t know if you knew about these newts but i think they would make a great option, both for you as a vendor(minimal losses in the shop, minimal returns) and for your costumers.

I received some euro-bred ribbed newts from one of my wholesalers last month. They are great little guys. Very hearty eaters, and not at all shy. By the time I factor in shipping (I can pick up Axie larvae) they are a little higher price, but still a good entry-level price point.

Right now, I've got a high-school aged customer who wants a couple Amphiuma, but I can't find any captive-bred, so I may try to steer him toward a caecilian such as T. natans instead.

[Joseph S]

Yeah. no CB amphiuma available.(you'd be hard pressed to find CB caecillians also) All available are WC, but they are quite abundant.(though of course habitat destruction is having an effect) But one thing to note is that not every pet store around has a tank full of amphiuma. I'm sure if that were the case a dent would be put in wild populations.

[Rodrigo]

Good, good. P.waltl needs to be extended as the perfect choice.
I´m sure if you showed that kid other species he would probably forget about the Amphiumas. Perhaps some species of Triturus might do the trick, he might even like the waltls.

[Joseph S]

I think the ones from Europe get a fair bit bigger than bloodlines in the US too.

Esp. if he's interested in breeding them(and is experienced enough) I don't see anything morally wrong with supplying him with a few amphiuma.

[Jacob Bidinger]

Originally Posted by jehitch

Right now, I've got a high-school aged customer who wants a couple Amphiuma, but I can't find any captive-bred, so I may try to steer him toward a caecilian such as T. natans instead.

I'm not sure you'll be able to find a c.b. T.natans any easier than you'll find a c.b. amphiuma.

I agree with what's been said about P.waltl. They're built like tanks and are tolerate poor water quality and heat much better than other newts.

[Otterwoman]

Let me plug the waltls as well. They are so cool. I love to tell people about them, about the ribs that can come out of the skin and the poison glands. Their patterns are so cool, like granite, and their cute little shovel faces, they are interactive and great eaters. They can get pretty big, and are so hearty and tough.