Captive breeding programs for C. O.

[Dana]

Hi everyone. The last of my advanced larvae (C.Orientalis) are beginning to morph. My oldest morphs are 3.5 mos. old. I'll have close to 50 when the remaining few morph. I was doing a search to see if there are any captive breeders in my area (Florida) and came up empty handed. I was considering donating some to a reputable breeder, but can't find any. Am I now the South Florida Captive Breeder for this species? Is there a way to find out? If I do take on the role and try to sell my little ones later on, how do I go about that? I really want these guys in GOOD hands. I will later post an ad here, but since they are too young to ship, don't want to take any chances. I've only lost 1 morph thus far.

Feel free to move this post if I shouldn't have posted here.

Thanks,
Dana

[Jennewt]

Dana, it sounds like you are just beginning to realize how rare your little breeding operation is! I would say you are the US Captive Breeder for this species! (Or one of the very few.) Ian Choi did something similar in Canada, but I can't think of anyone in the US who is making a serious effort to captive-breed this species right now. At least not on the scale that you are.

You won't have an easy time selling them. Sadly, the market is saturated with cheap wild-caught imports of this species. You should be able to find them good homes, though. It's likely you'll need to ship them, as I doubt that South Florida has enough such people to take them all.

[Rodrigo]

Sadly what Jen says is very true. When i first bred my orientalis i went into a kind of mental frenzy thinking about how good it was going to be to see the WC market being wiped-out by honest captive-breeding (oh how sweet it is to be a noob xD). Ha!!!!
Only recently i´ve been able to "get rid" of last year´s juveniles...and i didn´t have many. I had one of those for almost a year....waiting for someone to give it a new home. People are simply not interested.
I´ve learnt though, that at least here in Spain people do breed them with relative frequency, but i´m unsure as to what happens with the juveniles...maybe people don´t succeed in raising many. You certainly don´t see CB juveniles being offered often.
I regret to say that you may struggle a bit to find new homes for 50. Don´t dispair! But be ready to ship (which shouldn´t be a big problem). This forum is definitely your best bet to find new good homes around your country.

[Ian Choi]

Well, guess I have to join in the conversation.

If selling the CB C.O. for money is the main purpose, it simply does not worth it. Cause seldom anyone will pay more than 5$ Canadian for them, unless they are someone from this forum who want specifically a CB C.O. The WC C.O. is just so cheap that making CB C.O. for money not possible.

However, for personal scientific purpose or just for appreciation, it really worth it. I personally think that raising the C.O. during the terrestrial stage is the most difficult. But if you are feeding them live food, that might be easier than handfeeding them one at a time (which I did). I still have around 35 CB C.O. from 2 years ago. My original batch was around 60. I have to give away extra C.O. to longer the number in my group. I simply ran out of room to keep them all.

[Dana]

Thanks, friends. I'm happy to say that two members have already PM'd me about taking some animals. I'm certainly NOT in this for $ as you may recall, their breeding was not intended! I'm just really unclear as to when I can ship them - size, age? I fear I, too, will soon run out of places to keep them and I don't want them breeding again but am happy to perpetuate the species via a CB program. I also know that not all will survive. I've been encouraged thus far only having one die, but it's still very early.

There are pet stores willing to take "donations". While giving them away is NOT the issue, I do worry about to whom they are selling. I also worry about the conditions in which they are being kept. One of the popular US chain stores couldn't keep their stock alive. I know it was too hot in there at night. Here in South Florida, we rarely have acceptable temps w/o the A/C on, and at night, they probably overheated or were just sick upon arrival at the store.

I am happy about the two members who want about 10 each. They're offering to pay, but I really would only care about minimal compensation - mostly just want shipping charges. I'm sure my wildlife group will take a few off of my hands, but I really want them to be adults before getting into their hands.

Are they OK to ship at 6 mos. post morphing? Is a year safer? I'm really nervous to ship animals, but I know they have been successfully shipped before. I'm hoping our cooler months will find them ready to go, but I'm doubtful. After February, it's just SO hot here that I hesitate to try.

Thanks for any input,
Dana

[Jennewt]

They are safe to ship anytime after they finish metamorphosis. But if you ship them this young, they need to go into the hands of someone who is willing to keep them terrestrial and has access to the appropriate live food. This puts a limitation on what homes they will do well in, as you have realized.

I would advise against giving them to pet shops, unless you can really oversee the way they set them up, and provide a good caresheet. The big chain stores will usually refuse local animals, as their wholesale contracts do not allow it. You might do better with Craigs List; at least you could get them directly into the hands of the person interested.

In your climate, you are limited to shipping in winter. And at that time of year, you need to worry about freezing on the receiving end; you may need insulated containers and a room-temp cold pack.

Good luck!

[John Clare]

I'd consider buying them and I'm sure I'm not alone so please do post an advert when you are ready.

[Erica]

I'm in the same boat as you, Dana! I've been keeping Cynops orientalis for about eight years now, and they breed like mad. I have a very difficult time finding homes for them, and I don't want to go through a petstore. I also don't feel comfortable shipping them.

I currently have the population split between two large tanks to separate the males from the females, but I always seem to have mis-sexed at least one of them and end up finding more eggs! At first it was fun raising them from tadpoles, doting over them throughout metamorphosis, and learning so much about them. But now I'm afraid I will need to buy another tank every year just to house them all.

I would love to find good homes for some of them, but never have any luck. So last week I wrote up a very simple care booklet, complete with color photographs, and I'm using that to try to get people's interest in keeping these little guys. So far, a friend of my mother is interested in keeping a few for her classroom. She is going over my care booklet now to see if she can handle the requirements. I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Let us know what you end up doing!

Erica

[Dana]

I will certainly post an ad when the time is right. The temperature issue is another obstacle - when it's cool enough to ship here, it could be freezing elsewhere! I also have NO idea about shipping to other countries and I'm not really sure how to find out what's legal. With the eggs, I overnighted them. I'm sure that's not even possible for many international locations, though I did read where the juveniles can survive quite awhile in transit when properly packed.

Erica, I'm glad I'm not alone. I do have my wildlife group and they will likely take quite a few if I talk them up. However, we live in South Florida. It's almost always hot. Will they keep the house cool enough when they're not at home? Will they have parents who are as crazy as I am about meeting all the needs of their pets????

You mentioned two tanks going - one male, one female. Do the males fight? The girl at the pet store I frequent is looking for a home for one of her two C. Orientalis due to them fighting. She wanted to breed them, etc, but thinks she got two males. Hers are the other living ones from the batch when we bought ours - back then when my oldest (now 9) son fell in love with them and had to have them, before realizing they were WC, etc.

Anyway, I worried about the males fighting?

Dana

[Joseph S]

I think they best approach to take with raising lots of these is large naturalistic setups. Actually, I bet if someone did that with C. cyanurus on a large enough scale they could put them out quite cheaply(cheaply as in low cost for food/labor since methods such as tweezer or dish feeding are quit labor intensive)


Vista: I suspect she has a different species....Paramesitotriton or Pachytriton would be likely. I've never had Cynops fight except biting each other during a feeding frenzy...but few newts are above that!

[Dana]

best approach to take with raising lots of these is large naturalistic setups

Are you suggesting a lot of coco fiber with rocks and shallow water, plants, etc? I have a bunch of five and ten gallon tanks going at the moment. I'm actually quite terrified of having them reproduce again. If I house them together in a few years I expect more eggs if I have a lot of the current juveniles still on hand which I don't want! It would be practical for the next year or two, however. I guess when the return to the water, they'll be mature?

Please elaborate.

Thanks,
Dana

[Joseph S]

Large terrariums with dirt(coir would work) leaflitter/leafmold, moss etc. and hopefully lots of natural food. Woodlice should be introduced. Juveniles could be placed in these and left to fend for themselves. While they will need to be fed still of course(probably supplementing the woodlice and maybe a dish with some chopped earthworms added once a week and maybe occasionally adding more leaflitter), these setups will pretty much run on autopilot so you could keep goodly numbers of morphs with little time.

[Rodrigo]

Problem with that is monitoring. In my experience it is surprisingly common for apparently well stablished juveniles to suddenly develop problems and die. In a complicated, naturalistic tank you would have a very hard time monitoring each juvenile and making sure they all eat, so if a problem arises, you may miss it entirely.
While i´m a big fan of naturalistic set-ups, i think when dealing with rather difficult to raise juveniles, hand-feeding in a quarantine type tank for the first few months is better. Yes, it does consume more time at first, but in the long run they become so used to hand-feeding that it only takes 2 min to feed a dozen juveniles.
You can´t really compare C.cyanurus with C.orientalis. C.cyanurus stays aquatic after morphing and morph significantly bigger. C.orientalis morphs are big pain..they are tiny and very delicate. Raising methods for one species can´t be aplied to the other at all in my opinion.

[Salmonella]

Great idea! And yes, C.O. breed like crazy! Which is a good thing for those that love these creatures since they seem to have dropped out of the market (which might be a good thing?...). I support efforts to install a captive breeding program concerning Cynops Orientalis , or any other species for that matter. My thought is that the breeders main objective be twofold : 1. To preserve the species (duh), 2. Supply stock to hobbyists (which will help in preservation also). (That being true enthusiasts and not the pet trade.) The pet trade is no longer a realistic or viable reason to engage in breeding sals. It’s not lucrative and the possession of reptiles and amphibians may well be illegal in the very near future anyway. There are now several states that do not allow possession of foreign species which includes the majority of our beloved sals – even our seemingly “innocent” C.O. On the other hand, I am of the opinion that amphibians, reptiles, etc., won’t survive without active enthusiasts engaged in breeding programs.
For those that are interested in attempting to breed C.O., here is just a tiny bit of my experience with raising C.O. - my first newt species, and responsible for my newt addiction, and still one of my favorites.
I separate eggs/larvae into manageable numbers and allocate to several small containers. Then begins the never-ending daily responsibilities of cultivating foods, feeding, and monitoring water quality. Uneaten food (rarely) and the unfortunate mortality victims (surprisingly few), are removed daily. Foods included brine shrimp and white worms.
Then what seems like forever (months actually), I pay extra (possibly neurotic) attention to the soon to be morphed wanna be "land lubbers". Those individuals are moved to new containers that are furnished with flat, sloped edged stones so they have easy "land" access thereby diverting any possibility of drowning (go figure?). Also included are java moss and elodea for their lounging convenience. Since I choose to keep the morphs/juves aquatic, the water is kept at a level just covering the stones so they can easily stick their little heads out for a breath of fresh air. Feeding/monitoring individuals, etc. and partial water changes are done on a daily basis. Foods given at this stage are bloodworms and teeny-weeny baby earthworms. I prefer keeping the morphs aquatic as I think that feeding is more convenient and observation is more reliable. Other keepers prefer and are successful with the "terrestrial way". When lifestyle does not allow such indulgences, or when you feel overwhelmed with a booming newt population, just leave nature, well to nature. I leave eggs in the large "breeder" aquariums and hope for the best. If the aquarium/paludarium is large enough (consider population also), there will always be one or two larvae that will make it to adulthood. I keep a head count of all my guys and gals and have been surprised on more than one occasion to see a "new face" hanging out. Wow!
It is so much fun spying on these minuscule beings. (I have magnifying glasses scattered all over the place.) I get totally mesmerized while observing these fascinating creatures as they grow through their various stages (morphing, duh) – toes, feet, and legs making their appearances.; watching them suck up whatever food items swim their way....[IMG]file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image001.gif[/IMG]

[Joseph S]

Originally Posted by azhael

Problem with that is monitoring. In my experience it is surprisingly common for apparently well stablished juveniles to suddenly develop problems and die. In a complicated, naturalistic tank you would have a very hard time monitoring each juvenile and making sure they all eat, so if a problem arises, you may miss it entirely.
While i´m a big fan of naturalistic set-ups, i think when dealing with rather difficult to raise juveniles, hand-feeding in a quarantine type tank for the first few months is better. Yes, it does consume more time at first, but in the long run they become so used to hand-feeding that it only takes 2 min to feed a dozen juveniles.
You can´t really compare C.cyanurus with C.orientalis. C.cyanurus stays aquatic after morphing and metamorph significantly bigger. C.orientalis morphs are big pain..they are tiny and very delicate. Raising methods for one species can´t be aplied to the other at all in my opinion.

I have had some experience with these guys(in the end gave up because warmth here was too taxing on the young morphs C. ensicauda worked out a lot better). While it is true they are delicate admittantly she does have the strength of large numbers(IMHO no need to baby along the weak ones). They could be carefully monitored for a month or two in a more bare tank(and to make sure they convert completely to being terrestrial), then moved into the naturalistic setup. After all, in the wild their is no one continually checking up on them to make sure they do well....but what they do have is a lot of neat live food running around with them. I have some C. ensicauda that have been put into a naturalistic 46 gallon setup. 2 are still terrestrial, but do quite well with occasional chopped worms left in a dish, a few small crickets and most importantly feeding on the microlife in the tank(I've even observed these guys...who are nearing adult size, zapping small springtails!) They still remember an easy way to get food so even when I've been gone for months it is still easy to feed them from tweezers(and a great amusement to visitors).

(speaking of which, if anyone wants to produce lots and lots of newts to compete with the pet trade ones, C. cyanurus is a possible candidate. They'd do alot better for most customers than orientalis).

Also WB Salmonella!