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Pachytrtion labiatus pics

This is a discussion on Pachytrtion labiatus pics within the General Discussion & News from Members forums, part of the General Topics category; So I read here on the caresheet that P. labiatus doesn't like fish, but tell that to Sigourney, SLAYER of ...

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Old 23rd September 2010   #1 (permalink)
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Default Pachytrtion labiatus pics

So I read here on the caresheet that P. labiatus doesn't like fish, but tell that to Sigourney, SLAYER of fish

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

She caught it in a flat out chase, which shocked me, and ate it whole. She is one of the more modest in the tank, but she has caught killed two small fish out of the fry stage. I put some of our baby pond goldfish in the tank to increase nitrates so the Hyacinth would have food (as there are a lot, functions as the land portion actually). I am shocked at this as they are fed every other day in generous amounts. This newt almost prefers fish, going hunting periodically if they are in the tank and rebuffing blood worms, sometimes entirely.

Click the image to open in full size.

My tank- the log was replaced with more hyacinth recently though.

enjoy.




Last edited by Morm; 23rd September 2010 at 06:18.
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Old 23rd September 2010   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

What kind of fish is your Paddle Tail Newt eating? Looks like a injured feeder Gold Fish. I'm certain that feeder Gold Fish, Rosey Reds and feeder Guppies can inflict sickness onto whatever eats it. I used to work at a pet store and feeder fish were always sick and dying. I've lost turtles and other pets years ago feeding them feeder fish. These fish are kept in high numbers usually in small tanks, which foul the water quality fast. Resulting in sick fish. Use caution.



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Old 23rd September 2010   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

These are fish that were actually bred and raised here, in my house. They are goldfish; not comets, but a more expensive pond living kind. My dad's pond fish spawned and when I cleaned the tank out I put a random newt in. I then saw random babies, after the newt had her fill probably, and I rescued them. This is the fallout.

Also the fish was in great health, not injured, this newt is just...fast.

I'd be keen to know how you know that feeder fish killed them. Given that these are P. labiatus, I won't be spamming fish or anything, but it's just good info to have.



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Old 23rd September 2010   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

The article doesn´t say they don´t like fish, it says they are less specialized than other Pachytriton species. Pachytriton is one of the very few genera that has adaptations for catching fish. They are actually surprisingly good at it unlike most any other caudate. You should see a Cynops trying to catch one xDD



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Old 23rd September 2010   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

maybe I'll buy some fish from a breeder to feed them. How awesome.



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Old 24th September 2010   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

All Pachytriton are well-adapted for catching 'fish'. The animals in this thread are P.granulosus, which lives in coastal foothill streams. P.brevipes and a possible identical-looking species also live in coastal foothill streams. P.archospotus and P.labiatus live in mountain treams and seepages. In smaller streams and seepages, I would expect their prey to include Batrachuperus, tadpoles, crabs, shrimp, and various loaches. In larger streams you could add small crayfish and barbs/rasboras, and perhaps the rare Paramesotriton. You can look at it two ways - they can't be trusted with ANYthing smaller [and sometimes bigger], or treat anything smaller as a feeder!



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Old 25th September 2010   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

I'd like to know where you got your information!



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Old 25th September 2010   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

okay so I noticed on a floating log that the newts liked some white fuzzy looking stuff. I removed the log right after I saw it and everything has been well.

Now I am seeing it on one VERY SMALL section of one antler, but nowhere else. So I go to grab a biopsy and check visually and sure enough, it's a package of sperm. Looks like the newts are doing well enough for someone (probably the male with egg spots) to be frisky.

Help me figure out how to entice the female into finishing this process.



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Old 25th September 2010   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

Photos please. I think we'd like to see.



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Old 25th September 2010   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

well it was on one of the antlers...the stuff that's left doesn't photograph well, but the male is hanging out in that area very frequently. As I was poking at the filamentous parts in an area about 3 sq cm, a blob about 1 cm cubed came off the rock. I then removed it and looked at it. I didn't think to photograph the semen of another species, but if the cyclicity holds true we should have our next one within 10 days.

I'll take a photo then...trust me, it was semen.

I've decreased intervals between feedings, for the moment; extra nutrients may prompt the female to mate.



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Old 25th September 2010   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morm View Post
I'd like to know where you got your information!
Amphibians of Fukien, Hainan, and other parts of China
Amphibians of Western China
Herpetology of China
Studies on Chinese Salamanders
Herpetology of Vietnam
a now defunct website including habitat photos for some Chinese salamanders
and as many taxonomic works on Asiatic salamanders as I can get my hands on, including but not limited to, the descriptions of:
Yaotriton
Echinotriton
Tylototriton shanjing and re-evaluation of T.verrucosus
Tylototriton taliangensis
Tylototriton kweichowensis [see above]
re-evaluation of T.shanjing
Tylototriton vietnamensis
Paramesotriton guangxiensis
Paramesotriton ermizhaoi
Paramesotriton yunwuensis
Paramesotriton longliensis
Paramesotriton zhijinensis
Hypselotriton fudingensis
"Pingia granulosa", and redescription of same, and evaluation of re-description
Laotriton
Laotriton laoensis


papers on:
variation in Cynops pyrrhogaster
variation in Pachytriton
variation in Thai Tylototriton
ecology of Darjeeling Tylototriton
ecology of Nepalese Tylototriton

and many more...
Plus personal communications with more than a half dozen of the authors of various papers, plus personal experience with more than 16 taxa of Asiatic Salamandridae.

And of course, relevant materials covering Asiatic non-Salamandridae and non-Asiatic Salamandridae, and the ability to interpret the data in those materials :)



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Old 25th September 2010   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

give to me your knowledge or I will take it!

I actually think I have 2 different subspecies in this tank. :/



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Old 25th September 2010   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

Odds are, they're all P.granulosus. This species has a comparatively small range, and a LOT of color variation. There is a chance that more than one species is involved, but I doubt it. The species is more elongate than all the others [shorter limbs for the same trunk length], has a narrower head than P.labiatus, and is USUALLY brown with red lateral markings. Of course, it can have all other Pachytriton coloring, but the distribution, genetics, and body proportions are unique.

I had been collecting and segregating various color forms of this genus over the last couple years, with the intent of sending some for genetic testing. Based upon what I've read recently however, I am not so much inclined now. The most aberrant individuals likely originate at the fringes of the range, where some introgression of P.brevipes alleles seems likely. If it's determined that this actually IS more than one species, I'll have to reconsider again.

FYI, subspecies are rarely recognized any more. The reason for this is basically that the standards for defining a subspecies are exactly the same as for a species! Re-evaluating the traits of subspecies tends to result in one of two things: first, they are confirmed and the forms are distinct and separate groups of organisms [ie, species]. Second, the different named forms overlap extensively in their traits, including genetics, and do not merit separate names at all. When subspecies ARE still recognized, it is normally for populations which differ only slightly from one another [typically less than one million years separation], but which do differ consistently.

Sometimes it also happens that distinct differences exist, but they don't follow the patterns previously recognized in field guides. Examples:
Pseudacris fouquettei chiseled out of an "intergrade" zone of P.maculata and P.triseriata.
Chrysemys picta and C.dorsalis recognized, with all other subspecies absorbed into the former.
Heloderma suspectum cinctum absorbed...but the published evidence clearly shows two genetic species which don't match the accepted subspecies coloration.
Cryptobranchus bishopi absorbed into C.alleganiensis...but the published evidence shows at least 8 species, most of which have been lumped into C.bishopi.
Eurycea tynerensis and E.multiplicata griseogaster are the same species...but the former name is actually applied to a number of distinct species.

There are more, but these are the ones which pop to mind.



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Old 25th September 2010   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

The one that is in the pic has a far narrower head than all the others in the tank and is from not only a different import batch but a different store. She also is more active and has a narrower tail, as well as different colored eyes (which I know means nothing but is fun to point out). She is also less bulky and the only one that catches fish or shows interest in the shrimp.

It wouldn't shock me if they have a complex going on, if the appalacians teach us anything it's the caudates are hideously brutal in that regard. I'd actually be more shocked if there WASN'T something screwy going on with them.

Subspecies typically represents an isolated group that has differences but could still be considered the same species as far as I know; things like island populations are fantastic examples, assuming they've been separate for long enough to have some drift.

Click the image to open in full size.

compare this pic of my male to:

Click the image to open in full size.

this is the little one that catches fish (obviously).

I think there is significant differences, moreso than would be allowed within the typical "morph" framework that herpetoculture uses.

Edit: frog eyes, do you frequent the ERAS forums as well? I used to go there, but there are a ton of mouth breathers. Maybe we should talk in PM about salamander and caecillian phylogeny, as they might not be true lissamphibians.

edit: Photos of a new spermatophore in the same spot. Guess who is hanging out near it? The female!

Click the image to open in full size.

It's the white blobby, look in the reflection to see it. Looks like someone is desperate for so strange- how long should I leave it there? I would assume they would utilize it immediately if they were going to. If you look in the non reflection portion you can see the white fuzzies that he added to last night. Ugh, what a mess.

Click the image to open in full size.

Just for fun. Large female harassing the one I suspect isn't the same species/subspecies/whatever. Note the white fuzzies are there, so they are catfighting or something over it.




Last edited by Morm; 25th September 2010 at 20:38.
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Old 30th September 2010   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Pachytrtion labiatus pics

Quote:
Originally Posted by Morm View Post
The one that is in the pic has a far narrower head than all the others in the tank and is from not only a different import batch but a different store. She also is more active and has a narrower tail, as well as different colored eyes (which I know means nothing but is fun to point out). She is also less bulky and the only one that catches fish or shows interest in the shrimp.
Both P.granulosus. The other species are overall much more robust - heavier and longer legs, wider heads, heavier bodies. The animals pictured above are also fairly "normal" color for P.granulosus.

Quote:
It wouldn't shock me if they have a complex going on, if the appalacians teach us anything it's the caudates are hideously brutal in that regard. I'd actually be more shocked if there WASN'T something screwy going on with them.
Whole different situation. In Appalachia, we have an incredibly ancient mountain system which is a holdover from the original origins of salamanders over 200 million years ago. Most significantly, most of the diversity we see in the region is in two genera: Plethodon and Desmognathus. The former is a highly sedentary direct developer - it's prone to speciation because it rarely moves more than a couple feet from its home, and it has a limited range of habitat tolerance. As climates shift, populations expand and contract and lead to profuse speciation. Desmognathus are mainly stream dwellers. They're a little better at migrating, but that will often be along the length of stream systems. Speciation will largely derive from changes in direction of stream flow [interconnecting and dividing drainages] and the competition that derives from secondary contacts.

In Pachytriton, we have a younger genus of stream-dweller. It hasn't had the amount of driving factors for speciation as the plethodontids have. The driving factors have instead led to the origin of habitat-specific genera [Hypselotriton, Laotriton, Paramesotriton, Pachytriton], with only the most volatile habitats having a lot of speciation. That is, the mid-altitude step-pools - Paramesotriton. In any event, there just isn't evidence of great diversification in Pachytriton. Four species have been named, and morphology, genetics, and geography all identify three distinct clades conforming with these. One of those clades has three distinct branches, two of which clearly conform with known species. So, while there IS evidence of cryptic species, it's nowhere near the scale seen in Appalachian Plethodontidae.

Quote:
Subspecies typically represents an isolated group that has differences but could still be considered the same species as far as I know; things like island populations are fantastic examples, assuming they've been separate for long enough to have some drift.
Although true, that kinda misses my point. Note the portion I've bolded. Species and subspecies are defined exactly the same way. The part in bold is totally arbitrary and subjective. Although there are many definitions for a species [typically, when one works, many do], those definitions depend on objective criteria to conclude "these are the same" or "these are different".

Classically, subspecies have been recognized when a diverse population is found to have physical differences from one part of the range to others, but with those differences merging gradually. Problem number one - if they merge gradually, then they interbreed freely and are not distinct at all - no subspecies should be recognized [see also Liochlorophis vernalis]. Problem number two - the traits used to identify subspecies, have often not co-varied with other traits. Again, no subspecies. Third problem - with increased sampling, it is often found that there is no distinct merger - either very similar organisms overlap in range and create an illusion of intergradation, or two or more very similar organisms replace one another, again with no actual merging of traits. To this third problem, the conclusions is "species", since each group of organisms is biologically and functionally independent, regardless of how long or sharp that distinction is. Consequently, subspecies are rarely recognized any more.

Quote:
I think there is significant differences, moreso than would be allowed within the typical "morph" framework that herpetoculture uses.
Herpetoculture is not exactly a great place to look for standards of species recognition or identification. In point of fact, P.granulosus is the most variable member of the genus. It varies not only by location [with most departures from the norm being from the southern edge of the range, adjacent to P.brevipes], but by age. Both have been enormous causes for problems, most notably being the description of a new genus based on juveniles, the resurrection of that genus, and the combination of that genus with the Chinese fire-bellies - all because the animals change so much as they grow.

Quote:
Edit: frog eyes, do you frequent the ERAS forums as well?
Yes.

Quote:
Maybe we should talk in PM about salamander and caecillian phylogeny, as they might not be true lissamphibians.
Such a discussion would be inaccessible to most who might wish to learn from it or share in it

In any event, the case for Gymnophiona and Caudata forming a clade independent from Anura is far from a strong one. For instance, the majority of data, including genetic, clearly show Caudata to be sister to Anura, to the exclusion of Gymnophiona. No amount of fossil interpretation can lead to salamanders and caecilians being sister groups, if the genes have already shown that this is impossible.



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