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SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

This is a discussion on SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month within the Laws/Legality and Ethics forums, part of the Herpetological Science & Politics category; As stupid as this sounds, I'm trying to contact Zoo Atlanta about the issue, as they may be of somewhat ...

Laws/Legality and Ethics Discussion of the laws affecting herpetology around the world. Species legalities in different jurisdictions, import/export of animals, the legalities of species collection and the ethical considerations of all of the above.

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Old 12th January 2016   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

As stupid as this sounds, I'm trying to contact Zoo Atlanta about the issue, as they may be of somewhat help in this type of situation



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Old 12th January 2016   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I've posted on our sister forum Frog Forum, hopefully some people will help us from there too



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Old 12th January 2016   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Here is the full document (I think): http://www.fws.gov/injuriouswildlife...ean-to-OFR.pdf

At least, it includes their rationale for the species on the list, which is a good place to start coming up with a response.

Eta: looks like a lot of their decision was based on this research: http://science.sciencemag.org/content/346/6209/630.full

Will need subscription or access from a university to read it, though.



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Old 12th January 2016   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I have the full publications on my computer and will post them. The biggest issue I see is with several components of the methodology, which I do not feel make the results relevant to wild populations. In order to discover these flaws, you must dig very deep into supporting material that is not easy to find.



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Old 12th January 2016   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Without any (push back) they will and can pass anything they feel that is suitable. Since the Lacey act is implemented specifically to control chytrid, maybe they will lift the restrictions after there is a legit control on Salamander Chrytrid. But that means Chrytrid has to be controlled in foreign countries as well. And I don't see that happening anytime soon although there was a break through with chytrid treatment recently.

With chytrid effecting frogs and toads.... I assume there will be a ban on other amphibians besides newts and salamanders.



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Old 12th January 2016   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

They think only 338 captive bred salamander cross state lines in the U.S. each year. That is a point that could be contested:

"Listing 20 genera of salamanders would prohibit an estimated 217,000 salamanders imported per year; 338 domestically bred salamanders would face theinterstate transportation prohibition. "



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Old 12th January 2016   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I will definitely utilize a template letter or petition should one be drafted. When I learn which of my local representatives is involved I will also be contacting them.

I can't really wrap my head around this yet...



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Old 12th January 2016   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Major chains, Petsmart and Petco, sell various amphibians. I see more frogs than newts or salamanders in this area. Perhaps if someone could contact them with concerns about massive bans on newts and salamanders becoming a precident for other types of animals they might join in with their significantly higher resources.



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Old 12th January 2016   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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Originally Posted by minxytota View Post
Major chains, Petsmart and Petco, sell various amphibians. I see more frogs than newts or salamanders in this area. Perhaps if someone could contact them with concerns about massive bans on newts and salamanders becoming a precident for other types of animals they might join in with their significantly higher resources.
Unfortunately places like that are a big part of the problem. Buying large numbers of imported, wild caught amphibians and selling them to anybody for next to nothing is perfect way to spread disease.



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Old 12th January 2016   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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Unfortunately places like that are a big part of the problem. Buying large numbers of imported, wild caught amphibians and selling them to anybody for next to nothing is perfect way to spread disease.
I understand your logic for this but the document states that no cases have been found in the US, and the US has been importing (millions of?) wild caught Asian newts for many decades. Read the info on the disease. It is not B.d. (Chytrid fungus) - it is far less robust.



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Old 12th January 2016   #31 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

To my knowledge, the only cases they've found where diseases have been spread from captive salamander populations in the US to the wild has been when they were used as fishing bait. There are other problems with the mass importation of WC salamanders, but spreading disease to wild animals hasn't been one.



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Old 13th January 2016   #32 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

John Clare,
This is the forum that needs to be the leverage. The mechanism. You take charge and direct us. You have the gift. Huddle the gifted ones (those with green dots) get a plan, instruct us and fight



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Old 13th January 2016   #33 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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Originally Posted by taherman View Post
They think only 338 captive bred salamander cross state lines in the U.S. each year.
Any idea how they came up with that number? It's certainly wrong.



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Old 13th January 2016   #34 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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Any idea how they came up with that number? It's certainly wrong.
From what I can determine, it wasn't very scientific.



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Old 13th January 2016   #35 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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I have the full publications on my computer and will post them. The biggest issue I see is with several components of the methodology, which I do not feel make the results relevant to wild populations. In order to discover these flaws, you must dig very deep into supporting material that is not easy to find.
Tim, I have access to a lot of these harder to find materials...not sure if it's legal to share them on this forum, but I can definitely find them, read them, and cite them in any write up.



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Old 13th January 2016   #36 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Sorry for stating the obvious here for those who've already read the rule, but for those who haven't had time to do so yet and were looking for the place to submit public comments, it appears that the new rule won't officially be published until tomorrow; at that point, we should be able to begin submitting comments at Regulations.gov under Docket No. FWSHQFAC20150005.

This, apparently, is also where they will list their references for the rule. I am particularly interested in these, as I am very familiar with a lot of the most heavily-cited studies on Bsal, and I can't remember seeing anything claiming that only a few hundred cb salamanders cross state lines annually.



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Old 13th January 2016   #37 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

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I can't remember seeing anything claiming that only a few hundred cb salamanders cross state lines annually.
I (me alone) sent over 1500 captive bred tiger salamander offspring over state lines in 2013. And how many axolotl eggs fly around the country in the mail each day because of this site? Whoever came up with that "338 salamanders" for the country number obviously shouldn't be making legal policy.



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Old 13th January 2016   #38 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

This is bad news. The ban only effects the trade of the newts right? If I already have newts I don't have to get rid of them do I?



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Old 13th January 2016   #39 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Besides discussing, strategizing, and taking whatever action you feel appropriate to comment on the Proposed Rule, try also to think of the longer term.

One thing I would urge everyone to consider, assuming you are in a position to do so, is find ways to consolidate the stock that you do have either in your own collection or by sharing with community members here before January 28, or experienced keepers/breeders in your state after January 28. Think in terms of all possibilities and contingencies or combinations thereof.

For example, legal imports may not happen again in the foreseeable future, but perhaps testing will be reliable enough in the near future that interstate trade could again be permitted. If that happens it would be a shame if the hobby could not be resurrected because all that were left of captive stocks was Axolotls for example (or any other species not on the list of banned species). Take stock of what you have that is special and find a way to keep the breeding groups going!

These suggestions are not different than those made in several recent discussions (about how interests in certain species wax and wane until one day they are suddenly rare in the hobby). But now there is a real reason to try to work on innovative ways to legally keep species you are interested in around for the future. The market between hobbyists may undergo some huge changes, but I would ask, is money/profit the only reason for enjoying the hobby?

I've been a quiet lurker here for many years, and just joined about a year ago, but think this community has shown that private salamander enthusiasts and especially breeders have something to offer. Whether through innovative husbandry, or being able to work out many subtleties and quirks of breeding various species, many of you have contributed to the knowledge of salamanders. Don't forget that if and just because we may be adapting to some new realities.



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Old 13th January 2016   #40 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Are there any steps specifically we can do to combat this? I am greatly concerned by this. Newts are my favorite animals and it is hard enough trying to get the species I want. I understand the importance of protecting native wildlife and I definitely agree with protecting them 100%, but as is almost always the case with the federal government here they are going about it the wrong way and causing more problems for honest caudate keepers.



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