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SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

This is a discussion on SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month within the Laws/Legality and Ethics forums, part of the Herpetological Science & Politics category; Thank you everyone, please keep posting ideas (and the change.org petition is a good idea). A few of us have ...

Laws/Legality and Ethics Discussion of the laws affecting herpetology around the world. Species legalities in different jurisdictions, import/export of animals, the legalities of species collection and the ethical considerations of all of the above.

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Old 13th January 2016   #61 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Thank you everyone, please keep posting ideas (and the change.org petition is a good idea). A few of us have dissected this and written our thoughts, and I intend to have it all compiled together by the weekend into some kind of general letter anyone can use for comments or to send to lawmakers. Your comments to USFWS are good but you might want to wait for that general letter before posting a comment there, assuming you haven't already.



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Old 13th January 2016   #62 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

And related to this, I was wondering if anyone has an unlimited surveymonkey account I could use? I need to gather hard data on numbers in captivity (anonymously).



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Old 13th January 2016   #63 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

This is all beyond assinine, when they tried to put the large pythons and anacondas on the lacey act there was an uproar in the snake community and I believe they had the act repealed, let's hope we can get the same support.



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Old 13th January 2016   #64 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I'm going to be sick to my stomach. ......



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Old 13th January 2016   #65 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

This ban won't stop people who have spent most of thier lives dedicated to the hobby. This will ban will only help grow the black market. This ban is way too extreme.



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Old 13th January 2016   #66 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

The only reason they can do this is because the voterbase do not care about salamander hobby.

If you're looking at dire environmental effects, household cats should be banned before anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I love cats. But that doesn't stop me from accepting facts.

Anyhow, in a capitalist - democratic society, only 3 things come into play when deciding policy and legal action :

1) Number of votes that this will effect.
2) The total market value of the subject in question
3) Resilience/unified voice of the target demographic, group, etc

For the very same reason gun control will never take place in US the salamander hobby may very well die in the states. With the market value of US in the pet trade this will also have dire ramifications on the international amphibian trade as a whole.

Chytrid is the new red it seems...



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Old 13th January 2016   #67 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I will be happy to share, spread the news, get signatures or sign anything.



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Old 14th January 2016   #68 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

From the actual published rule, please see the following and compile this information for submission as public comment to the federal government. This seems like information that the Caudata.org community could collectively compile. These are reasonable and well thought out requests for information, and with luck the answers will be taken into consideration in the final draft of the regulations

We are soliciting public comments and supporting data to gain additional information, and we specifically seek comment on the following questions:

(1) How many of the species listed by this rule are currently in production for wholesale or retail sale, and in how many and which States?

(2) How many businesses sell one or more of the species listed by this rule?

(3) How many businesses breed one or more of the species?

(4) What species listed as threatened or endangered by one or more States would be affected by the introduction of Bsal?

(5) What provisions in the interim rule should the Service have considered with regard to: (a) The impact of the provision(s) (including any benefits and costs), if any, and (b) what alternatives, if any, the Service should consider, as well as the costs and benefits of those alternatives, paying specific attention to the effect of the rule on small entities?

(6) How could the interim rule be modified to reduce costs or burdens for some or all entities, including small entities, consistent with the Service’s requirements? For example, we seek comment on the distinct benefits and costs, both quantitative and qualitative, of (a) the prohibitions on importation and (b) the prohibitions on interstate transport of the species listed by this rule. What are the costs and benefits of the modifications?

(7) Is there any evidence suggesting that Bsal has been introduced into the United States or may have already established?

(8) Are there other pathways for Bsal into the United States that we should address? If so, what are they?

(9) Is there evidence suggesting that any of the species listed by this rule are not carriers of Bsal? If so, what species?

(10) Is there any evidence suggesting that additional species are carriers of Bsal and should be listed by this rule? If so, what species?

(11) Are there methods (such as thermal exposure) that would allow salamanders imported into the United States to be reliably treated to help ensure Bsal is not introduced into the United States, and how could compliance be monitored?

(12) Should the Service add eggs or other reproductive material of listed salamanders to the list of injurious wildlife because they may also carry Bsal?

(13) For the species we are listing, are the scientific and common names the
most appropriate ones accepted by the scientific community?

(14) What are relevant Federal, State, or local rules that may duplicate, overlap, or conflict with the interim rule?

We will also submit the rule for peer review concurrent with public comments. In conducting peer review, we will follow guidance from the Office of Management and Budget ‘‘Final Information Quality Bulletin for Peer Review’’ (OMB 2004) and the Service’s own guidance.



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Old 14th January 2016   #69 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Thanks Tim. People should keep this list in mind as they formulate their rule comments.

However, you should feel free to voluntarily give numbers in the comment period, even if you don't want to break down exactly what you have by species, the total number of salamanders you have that are subject to this rule _and_ how many you send over state lines (estimate as accurately as you can - please don't exaggerate) each year. I will be creating an anonymous survey to gather this info too, and there will only be my name attached to it so you could go that route if you don't want to disclose too much in your rule comment under your name.



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Old 14th January 2016   #70 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Interesting... Are eggs not already included in the ban? The questions above seem to imply that they aren't. I'll have to read the whole thing again.



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Old 14th January 2016   #71 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfoot View Post
Interesting... Are eggs not already included in the ban? The questions above seem to imply that they aren't. I'll have to read the whole thing again.
It would seem they aren't.

"The importation, transportation, or acquisition of any live or dead specimen, including parts, but not eggs or gametes, of the genera......"

Then it goes on to list several genera.
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Old 14th January 2016   #72 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Quote:
Originally Posted by sde View Post
It would seem they aren't.

"The importation, transportation, or acquisition of any live or dead specimen, including parts, but not eggs or gametes, of the genera......"

Then it goes on to list several genera.
Unfortunately, that won't help S. salamandra much.



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Old 14th January 2016   #73 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Actually, this is probably not referring to fertilized eggs, which would probably be covered under 'live specimen', but refers to unfertilized eggs.

Eta: never mind, they use 'gametes' specifically, so I guess it does mean fertilized eggs.




Last edited by slowfoot; 14th January 2016 at 01:13. Reason: Me and my iPad can't spell and I'm dumb
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Old 14th January 2016   #74 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Quote:
Originally Posted by slowfoot View Post
Actually, this is probably not referring to fertilized eggs, which would probably be covered under 'live specimen', but refers to unfertilized eggs.

Eta: never mind, they use 'gametes' specifically, so I guess it does mean fertilized eggs.
Technically fertilized eggs are no longer gametes, they become zygotes upon fertilization. I don't know if they would, or how they could enforce a change to exclude zygotes.



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Old 14th January 2016   #75 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Any idea how they came up with that number? It's certainly wrong.
I would assume Dr. Kerry pulled that data from the kingsnake.com classifieds and fauna classifieds websites. I believe that was the case when the frog ban came up some years ago. jvk



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Old 14th January 2016   #76 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

One thing I mentioned in my comment that others may want to as well is the fact that this hobby is the only reason many people are even aware of most of these species. I'm not a breeder but I've purchased salamanders from breeders on this forum and I can tell you for a fact that I wouldn't be involved with conservation of these animals if I had never been able to buy them and own them. More regulation is needed to protect them but completely banning their transport will just take any potential public interest away from them



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Old 14th January 2016   #77 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

SAVE THE FROGS! organization is extremely opposed to the hobby. I have asked them before the position they hold on the hobby and it is a very negative one. They would ban keeping frogs if they could; just take a look at their website.



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Old 14th January 2016   #78 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

I pulled this from Facebook on the SAVE THE FROGS! Facebook page. This organization was part of the reason the ban was put into place. And here is the rationale the founder, Dr. Kerry Kriger gave. You can read the whole thread here:
https://www.facebook.com/savethefrog...53654342510865

Dr. Kriger has not given much solid evidence for the rationale of the ban.

"Advyth loving animals does not mean that the lover of the animals is acting in ways that protect the animals. A little kid who buys a diseases and endangered wild caught frog imported from Colombia may love his frog and when he goes away on vacation and returns to find it dead or when he releases it into the wild to give it freedom thereby killing it and potentially spreading its diseases he loved it to death. While this is an extreme example even a knowledgeable breeder of captive raised frogs cannot detect diseases not yet discovered by science, nor is any disease detection technique perfect, nor do most imports get tested, nor can any human defend against a natural disaster splitting their house into pieces and all their captive animals (none of which signed on for a life in captivity) get set free into the wild to establish invasive populations and spread their diseases. How many breeders sterilize the water from their tanks before releasing the water into the environment? I guess less than one percent."

" Dan I can't recall a time in the last eight years where a call for any type of ban was welcomed by those who profit off the sale of amphibians. The USFWS and the scientific community realizes that if the salamander chytrid enters the USA species extinctions could follow. Do you support the extinction of America's salamander species? I don't."

"I have visited many famous museum collections as well as scientific and conservation captive breeding facilities in Australia, Ecuador, Colombia and Panama containing some of the rarest and most colorful species on the planet but none of those experiences remotely come close to the experience of seeing wild frogs and salamanders in their native habitats. If everyone spent more time outside they would probably altogether lose their perceived need to see amphibians in tanks in their houses living in unnatural habitats deprived of their freedom."

All those quotes are from Kerry Kriger.

For evidence he links to this page: http://www.savethefrogs.com/frogblog.../bsal-studies/
Someone with experience as a biologist could look at the methodology of those studies.



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Old 14th January 2016   #79 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

Good golly this is rough.....is this just another "lame duck" president move? No guns, no newts, whats next?! No pizza?!



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Old 14th January 2016   #80 (permalink)
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Default Re: SWEEPING BAN on salamander trade/transportation in effect this month

So I am a lurker for a while. But I put up the link to leave comments on the ruling all over facebook in all the frog groups trying to rally some help. hopefully that means more comments of displeasure to protect this hobby. Some of you may have seen me on there already. Share this link with fellow hobbyists outside the amphibian side of the hobby of herps. Don't go out without a fight!!!

https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...chytrid-fungus



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