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New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

This is a discussion on New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way? within the Laws/Legality and Ethics forums, part of the Herpetological Science & Politics category; Well do you think bat keepers caused white nose? That seems unlikely and it seems it spread by some other ...

Laws/Legality and Ethics Discussion of the laws affecting herpetology around the world. Species legalities in different jurisdictions, import/export of animals, the legalities of species collection and the ethical considerations of all of the above.

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Old 1st April 2015   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

Well do you think bat keepers caused white nose? That seems unlikely and it seems it spread by some other way such as splunking. So if that's the case, why should we believe only pet keepers could be the cause here? I worry a ban will only create a false sense of security while other threats go unchecked (because humans simply won't agree to them).'



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Old 1st April 2015   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

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Originally Posted by sde View Post
It depends.amphibians. But I do know that people have shipped eggs from one

. So if I was going to have someone collect eggs for me they could potentially ship them to my country. However lots of species have already reached many countries - weather legally or not - and have good captive populations. So like I said before, I just don't think there is going to be much of a need for more WC animals to be introduced into the hobby.
By the way, I admire that you are willing to argue your opinions as you have, many people would not voice their opinions simply because it isn't the commonly excepted one. A variation in opinion is always good. -Seth
It almost sounds like you are advocating new regulations and advocating egg smuggling in the same paragraph. Eggs might be easier to hide but fall under the same regulations as salamanders. Sometimes certification of egg type means more paperwork and inspections for legal importation.



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Old 1st April 2015   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

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Originally Posted by michael View Post
It almost sounds like you are advocating new regulations and advocating egg smuggling in the same paragraph. Eggs might be easier to hide but fall under the same regulations as salamanders. Sometimes certification of egg type means more paperwork and inspections for legal importation.
I said that many species have already been introduced into the hobby, weather the original animals were taken legally or not. How does that imply I am advocating smuggling? Weren't some Neurergus illegal exported/collected? I don't like that that was done, but it already has been, and now there is a large captive population. Saying that we have enough species in captivity at this point, even if they were originally illegally taken, is not advocating smuggling.

Perhaps you were referring to how I said someone could ship me eggs from another country. I have heard from more than one person that this can be done. Weather it is legal or not, I do not know. I did say before that that I am not up do date on importing/exporting regulations. Obviously anyone who seriously wanted to do this would have to look into it and make sure it is not illegal, rather than simply assume so. And, assuming it is legal, do the correct paperwork.

And yes, I am advocating the banning of WC imports.



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Old 1st April 2015   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

The "someone could ship me eggs" thing kind of got me. Live animals, dead animals, and eggs all need the same paperwork as live specimens. All of the N. kaiseri I imported came in with paperwork. As far as I know all of the kaiseri that came to the U.S. had usfw import paperwork. As long as USFW certified them legal it was fine with me. It is nearly impossible to get eggs certified for import and export because they are difficult to identify.

The proposal is for all imports to be tested not just wild caught.



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Old 1st April 2015   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

I sense that Michael is well-aware of this, based on his choice of wording, but all the pre-CITES N.kaiseri are technically illegal under the Lacey Act, because there have been virtually no legal exports of them from Iran. Illegal from the source=illegal under the Lacey Act. And like other CITES-1 animals, or animals of probably-illegal origin [eg. Australian CITES species, which require USFWS export permits, but likely never arrived legally], it's not likely that USFWS will ever grant export paperwork for them.

As for other imports and exports, he is also correct. 1) eggs are animals and require all the same papers and procedures.

USFWS regulations make it difficult to move many animals between the USA and anywhere else, as those procedures must be followed, regardless of the laws of other countries. Many countries have few restrictions on the shipping or import and export of herps [eg., Canada, some European countries], but some have laws similar to the Lacey Act [eg., Canada's WAPPRIITA]. So while you can mail eggs and salamanders to and from these countries, you can't do so to or from the USA. Shipping by other methods may be legal, but failing to follow the proper procedures of any country is a violation of federal law in both the USA and Canada. So while you might follow your own domestic laws [or think you are], you could commit federal offenses by not accommodating foreign regulations as well.



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Old 1st April 2015   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

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Originally Posted by FrogEyes View Post
I sense that Michael is well-aware of this, based on his choice of wording, but all the pre-CITES N.kaiseri are technically illegal under the Lacey Act, because there have been virtually no legal exports of them from Iran. Illegal from the source=illegal under the Lacey Act. And like other CITES-1 animals, or animals of probably-illegal origin [eg. Australian CITES species, which require USFWS export permits, but likely never arrived legally], it's not likely that USFWS will ever grant export paperwork for them.

.
When I got USFW approval to import c.b. N. kaiseri Fish and Wildlife didn't see it as a violation of the Lacey act. I always just went by what fish and wildlife said. Now that kaiseri are CITES listed it is a different story. Regulations are kind of odd. My policy has been to ask the people in charge of regulation enforcement what is legal and what is not. This kind of legal ambiguity also extends to state and local regulations.



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Old 2nd April 2015   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: New Salamander Fungus Found: Are More Pet Trade Regulations on the Way?

Pre-CITES N.kaiseri didn't require any documentation of their history, nor any special USFWS paperwork. One could argue a perfectly legal ancestry and it would be hard to prove otherwise. No actual permit was required for their import, beyond a general import permit for "commercial" quantities. One unprotected salamander was no different from another, especially if it was being exported from Oman or Ukraine, and not "Iran".

CITES listing changes that - you need paperwork proving a legal origin in order to get paperwork to move them elsewhere, and USFWS isn't likely to rubberstamp something they believe is a violation of the Lacey Act. They don't have to prove it, they simply choose not to legitimize it by providing additional permits.

Import/export permits are general in nature, but CITES permits are specific to species, quantities, places of origin, and end-purpose.



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