The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store


Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

This is a discussion on Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study within the Conservation and Habitat Management forums, part of the Herpetological Science & Politics category; 4 largely cave-dwelling Texas salamanders get help http://bitly.com/P4uIF9 Spotted Salamanders seem to be adapting to roadside toxins http://bitly.com/KSdPeP...

Conservation and Habitat Management For discussion of the creation and maintenance of wild habitats for caudates and other amphibians, and on amphibian conservation issues.

Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23rd August 2012   #1 (permalink)
Herpetologist & Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Nationality:
Posts: 400
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

4 largely cave-dwelling Texas salamanders get help http://bitly.com/P4uIF9 Spotted Salamanders seem to be adapting to roadside toxins http://bitly.com/KSdPeP



findi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th August 2012   #2 (permalink)
Site Contributor
 
SludgeMunkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 41
Posts: 2,299
Gallery Images: 42
Comments: 9
Rep: SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11SludgeMunkey goes to 11
Default Re: Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

Frank, I am curious of your stance on these findings.

I personally wonder if there are dormant traits in these species left over from the days a few million years back when brackish type and saline waters were more common as amphibian habitats.



SludgeMunkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th August 2012   #3 (permalink)
Herpetologist & Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Nationality:
Posts: 400
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

Quote:
Originally Posted by SludgeMunkey View Post
Frank, I am curious of your stance on these findings.

I personally wonder if there are dormant traits in these species left over from the days a few million years back when brackish type and saline waters were more common as amphibian habitats.
Hi,

Interesting thought, thanks. We cannot really tell, as far as I know. This seems to be a recent adaptation, but whether or not it is helped along by their evolutionary history is difficult to know. Spotted salamanders, evolved a highly terrestrial lifestyle, taking them away from water early on, but also causing them to breed in tiny fish-free pools that have high concentrations of natural salts and minerals, in addition to pollution. And as water levels drop, these concentrations become higher. So rapid adaptation would be to their advantage (hopefully rapid enough to keep up with what ewe do to them!).

There are a few salt-tolerant amphibians, most notably SE Asia's Crab-eating Frog, an amazing beast. African clawed frogs survive in sometimes brackish pools along the coast of the UK (introduced population), and American and Fowlers Toads have been found breeding in brackish tidal ponds.

Keep the ideas coming...that's how we discover new things, and there are many left!

Best, Frank



findi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th September 2012   #4 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 893
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 8
Rep: FrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

I can't see salt tolerance as a holdover of ancient "amphibians", as modern amphibians are no more related to extinct marine or brackish creatures than we are. The most basal salamanders are largely associated with mountain streams (Cryptobranchidae, most genera of Hynobiidae), as are many of the most basal living frogs (Ascaphidae, Leiopelmatidae, Megophryidae). Salt tolerance is often associated with the most "advanced" species (Salamandra in Portugal, Salamandridae; Ambystoma in Mexico, Ambystomatidae; Bufo in Europe and Anaxyrus in NA, Bufonidae; Fejervarya in Asia, Dicroglossidae; Platymantis in Melanesia/Micronesia, Ceratobatrachidae).

It's notable that in Ambystoma, a single highly complex clade adapted to arid environments has developed mountain stream, saline lake, and highly adaptable species. Likely the aquatic life phase creates aquatic opportunities like streams, while terrestrial adaptation to aridity creates pre-adaptation for saline tolerance. The related Dicamptodon is also stream-adated, at least in extant species. Extinct species of dicamptodontid were likely more variable in habitat.



FrogEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th September 2012   #5 (permalink)
Herpetologist & Author
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Nationality:
Posts: 400
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)findi has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Conserving Rare Salamanders; Spotted Sal study

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrogEyes View Post
I can't see salt tolerance as a holdover of ancient "amphibians", as modern amphibians are no more related to extinct marine or brackish creatures than we are. The most basal salamanders are largely associated with mountain streams (Cryptobranchidae, most genera of Hynobiidae), as are many of the most basal living frogs (Ascaphidae, Leiopelmatidae, Megophryidae). Salt tolerance is often associated with the most "advanced" species (Salamandra in Portugal, Salamandridae; Ambystoma in Mexico, Ambystomatidae; Bufo in Europe and Anaxyrus in NA, Bufonidae; Fejervarya in Asia, Dicroglossidae; Platymantis in Melanesia/Micronesia, Ceratobatrachidae).

It's notable that in Ambystoma, a single highly complex clade adapted to arid environments has developed mountain stream, saline lake, and highly adaptable species. Likely the aquatic life phase creates aquatic opportunities like streams, while terrestrial adaptation to aridity creates pre-adaptation for saline tolerance. The related Dicamptodon is also stream-adated, at least in extant species. Extinct species of dicamptodontid were likely more variable in habitat.

Hi,

Thanks for your feedback; interesting ideas - I'm in touch with someone working on a related subject at the AMNH here in NYC but am not familiar enough with her research to comment in detail. From past conversations, I gather that generalizations are very difficult to make. Adaptation forced by environment comes into play across a variety of families- some high-altitude Telmatobius spp., i.e. the Lake Titicaca Frog, are well adapted to waters high in dissolved salts and other minerals, despite being considered relatively "primitive" .

The tiger salamander relatives you mention are quite amazing - some of the habitats they've adapted to, especially in Mexico, seem to push the bounds of what is possible for an amphibian.

Best, Frank



findi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
roadside toxins, salamander conservation, spotted salamanders

LinkBack
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shelter Dogs Come to the Rescue for Rare Salamanders Jennewt Press / News Items 7 1st October 2012 21:00
AL Press: Alabama among the best places to study salamanders wes_von_papinešu Press / News Items 0 25th August 2009 04:59
blue spotted salamanders and Spotted Salamanders caudatadude28 Newt and Salamander Help 9 15th July 2008 10:45
AL Press: Scientists study rare salamander in hopes of protecting it wes_von_papinešu Press / News Items 0 20th June 2008 19:54


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:04.