Tylototriton Keepers in the United Kingdom.

[TyloDude]

Hello to everyone,

Thought I would post this up as it's something I'm very passionate about and hopefully I could get some interest. There has been a sudden boom in the United Kingdom in the keeping of Tylototriton species, which in my opinion everyone should love them cos they are fantastic!

Anyway, there is a huge place appeared in the market for them as slowly people are getting more interested in the Genus. However, I do feel as though there should be some sort of controlled breeding and recording/studding/document of all the breeding and even keepers (Not just breeding) that is and will be happening from the Past, Present and the Future.

What I am suggesting is that all breeding heavily monitored and who they are sold to is too (even if it is all in confidence and not shared openly. And if someone doesnt want to tell them their names, they can use an alias).
So, I was going to propose that maybe a Document is drafted based on everyone's Tylototriton of where they are from, who they belong to, previous owners, Offspring, Who the offspring were sold to, Previous owners of the offspring and so on and so forth! And basically every-time an individual is sold on to a new owner, its recorded and the document on those individuals passed onto the next owner too and if those individuals have offspring, its recorded and new documents are made for the offspring too that survive and make it into Adulthood with their bloodline history on it.

Its sort of like documents provided for tortoises (sort of but not exactly). These are the following species I propose to keep documents of to monitor their breeding and trade:

• Mandarin Crocodile Newts (Tylototriton shanjing)
• Guizhou (Kweichow) Crocodile Newts (Tylototriton kweichowensis)
• Guizhou (Kweichow) Crocodile Newts (Tylototriton.cf.kweichowensis) I hate calling it a CF species but for arguments sake.
• Taliang Knobby Newt (Tylototriton taliangensis)
• Wenxian Knobby Newt (Tylototriton wenxianensis)
• Himalayan Crocodile Newt (Tylototriton verrucosus)
• Black Knobby Newt (Tylototriton asperrimus)
• Hainan Knobby Newt (Tylototriton hainanensis)
• Vietnamese Crocodile Newt (Tylototriton vietnamensis)
• Vibrantly-Spotted Newt (Tylototriton notialis)

Some of those are nearly impossible to come across in the UK but I thought if by some chance they did appear into the Pet Trade it might be worth putting them there or in case there is someone that already has them. I know it will be tricky to do some Tylo Blood lines and Owner's history as with old Blood lines you could go on forever, but I think it would be worth the hard work in the long run.

Let me know what you think, I know it's not something that can be done over night or that everyone in the UK might be interested in or that some people might not be interested in breeding them, but I think it might be good to have this little system or whatever you call it introduced to make sure we don't screw up blood lines and genes with inbreeding, even if we dont mean to do that! :)

Let me know what you all think, I have an idea I'm toying with about the Document/certificate thing and what it would look like but it would be good to hear what you make of this entire thing as a whole!

Thank you for reading, Hope you all understand what I'm rabbiting about lol.


TyloDude


P.S If you are a keeper in the UK with Tylototriton, why not join the UK Tylototriton Keepers group by clicking Here

[jane1187]

I'm assuming you're attempting to avoid inbreeding amongst a rapidly growing captive population?

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by jane1187

I'm assuming you're attempting to avoid inbreeding amongst a rapidly growing captive population?

Yeah, to put it basically. As the entire genus is in high demand (I'm sure that will only increase too) we need to be very careful as to not to inbreed, as I hate anything to do with that subject at all because there is no need to inbreed thing in my opinion (unless you really have to with a species highly endangered).
It's just to keep a good eye on it, as I said, I think a good document stating blood lines and who they are from/bred by and previous owners wouldn't be a bad thing! :) And if people don't want their names on the documents then I'm sure they could use a Alias or their Caudata.org name :)

[jane1187]

Sounds reasonable. You would probably have to set up some sort of 'club' in order to keep track of everyone. I think it sounds like a good idea myself but would take a lot of time and effort. Well good luck, will be nice to see if anyone else is on board.

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by jane1187

Sounds reasonable. You would probably have to set up some sort of 'club' in order to keep track of everyone. I think it sounds like a good idea myself but would take a lot of time and effort. Well good luck, will be nice to see if anyone else is on board.

Yeah I thought it was reasonable too, but we shall see if anyone likes the idea! lol :) Yeah I was thinking about that actually, definitely something to look into more, I have made a UK Tylo keeper group and it has a few members in it but I know that surely can't be everyone! :/ It will probably be a lot of hard work, but I am prepared to try and do it for the good of the Genus :) Thank you, I think I might need it! :)

[Foster Reves]

Good idea and you have obviously put some thought into this. It seems that there was a European studbook floating around a few years back however.
Chip

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by freves

Good idea and you have obviously put some thought into this. It seems that there was a European studbook floating around a few years back however.
Chip

Hey Chip,

Yeah I have put a lot of thought into this and a bit of effort with the design of the document! lol And yes there was but considering the amount of new tylo's and new keepers i highly doubt its even been looked at, but its not a studbook I'm really suggesting, more of a Certificate/document liek you would get with Tortoises in the UK that states all information, which is passed on to the owner :) and if that owner sells on the animal they simply write down their names (or alias) and the date they kept them from and till, then pass on the document to the new owner :)

Hope you can understand what i mean?

[Sean]

I suggested a stud book but keepers recommend maybe difficult with specimens in pet trade and being wild caught

[mr cyclone]

Although I do believe inbreeding etc isn't a good idea ,but most CB animals are inbred from f1 to f10,and who's to say that WC mixing /breeding wont contain similar genetics although some paper work is a good idea although it's still an invasion of privacy most people wont agree with.I'm someone who likes fresh blood although dont want all my dealings to be mapped out.
I do however want a look of that studbook you were talking about foster reeves(chip) I also want to see more of your pictures of your Tylo's as you seem to have lots of black tylo's
Wenxianensis,Asperimus and Wchinotriton.I also have Taliang,Asperimus and Wenxianensis.
And I know you dont like takeing pictures ,get a lod fired up mate us Tylo freaks dont want your excuses,The Tylo keepers demand your info and input ,as there is very little accurate CB info available we all need to get a good rapport going on our experiences and techniques,setups,feedin,temperatures,pictures and our own personal taxonomy

If there are any other Tylototriton enthusiasts who want to revive some old posts or share some information on any of the above species/topics please share!!!
This way at least we can all learn and look after them to the best of our ability
cheers..Brb .....Mmmmmm Beeerrrr!!!

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by mr cyclone

Although I do believe inbreeding etc isn't a good idea ,but most CB animals are inbred from f1 to f10,and who's to say that WC mixing /breeding wont contain similar genetics although some paper work is a good idea although it's still an invasion of privacy most people wont agree with.I'm someone who likes fresh blood although dont want all my dealings to be mapped out.

Well here's our chance to try and stop it then, just saying it cant be avoided or stopped or it probably has already happened isnt exactly good thinking or a good way of looking at it lol You're probably right but are you just saying it should just continue and let to go out of control? lol And Aaron you haven't read all of it, you wont have your name on the paper if you dont want it, you can use an alias and also this paper work won't be online it will be kept between breeding and owners that your provide stock to. :)

You sell a lot of eggs and juvies, thats a fact and probably loads of other people are too, but whose to say that all these animals wont find there way back together later on if the person/buyer gets bored of it and sells them to someone thats got some, probably from you too? lol We can't keep track of all of them there are bloods that are really old a go back miles, and your right some people may not like it recorded but what I'm saying is it will be kept private and even anonymous and kept down to just a name that no one will know apart from you and the buyer :) It's something i think to work on, an idea that could work out and help a lot cos im not going to sell my offspring to just anyone and not stay in contact with them lol Studbook seems to be pretty elusive and I believe its quite old but no one seems to actually keep track of it, which seems like a failed attempt at trying to keep on top of it, I personally think my idea of a document/certificate of blood line history is a better way are recording the data :/

[jane1187]

You say you've made a tylo keepers group. Can you post a link? I'm not an official keeper yet as I only have eggs (kindly sent by mr cyclone) but hopefully those eggs will turn into my first tylo's.

Definately in a few years time I would like to breed from my (hopefully) tylo's and would need to find an unrelated or distantly related male/female. A sort of studbook or paperwork of some kind would help to ensure I don't inbreed too much.

I imagine you'll have to consider how closely related is too closely related. I know that with dog pedigrees any common name within the parent or grandparent sections of the tree are (supposed to be) considered as inbreeding (but thats an entirely different soapbox I have about pedigree dogs so I won't bore you with my ranting!). I imagine your document should consider some sort of basic family tree. Unfortunately you can't always tell who the parents are so that could be a problem. It might me possible to attribute eggs to a particular female (if you watch her lay them), but if there are multiple males you can;t always tell who's the daddy.

All issues I'm sure you've considered but I'm sure there are some solutions.

It might be that you just end up with some dedicated members who keep the correct paperwork, but I doubt you'll get all keepers to do it.

In response to Mr Cyclone's concerns about anonymity and privacy you could perform the whole thing without ANY reference to the owner. If you had paperwork per animal there would be no need at all to put any information about the owner. If 'Fluffy' has 'Shep' as her grandfather on her stud document the document doesn't have to say who owned 'Shep'. That might help to entice owners who are concerned about privacy.

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by jane1187

You say you've made a tylo keepers group. Can you post a link? I'm not an official keeper yet as I only have eggs (kindly sent by mr cyclone) but hopefully those eggs will turn into my first tylo's.

Definately in a few years time I would like to breed from my (hopefully) tylo's and would need to find an unrelated or distantly related male/female. A sort of studbook or paperwork of some kind would help to ensure I don't inbreed too much.

Ahhhh Hopefully you will be an official keeper soon then! :) The link to the UK Tylototriton Keepers Group is in my original post starting the thread, but here it is so you don't have to go through all the Posts to find it lol

"P.S If you are a keeper in the UK with Tylototriton, why not join the UK Tylototriton Keepers group by clicking Here"

Exactly, I think if I could work out a proper way with how to do this, it could work very well and try and prevent this problem as much as possible without causing further inbreeding to blood line, Old and New.

Originally Posted by jane1187

I imagine you'll have to consider how closely related is too closely related. I know that with dog pedigrees any common name within the parent or grandparent sections of the tree are (supposed to be) considered as inbreeding (but thats an entirely different soapbox I have about pedigree dogs so I won't bore you with my ranting!). I imagine your document should consider some sort of basic family tree. Unfortunately you can't always tell who the parents are so that could be a problem. It might me possible to attribute eggs to a particular female (if you watch her lay them), but if there are multiple males you can;t always tell who's the daddy.

Yeah, it will have to be thought about even more careful as to what could eventually inbreed with, however I think there is no need to even consider doing that as of yet with the new specimens that are imported into the UK. Well, personally i think that it should sort of contain this "Tylo Family Tree" but we do need to know who is the breeder/owner who bred them in the first place and sold them on, so the good old Mummy who brought little Ty the Tylototriton into the world doesnt get mixed up again and end up mating with his mum, after so many years.

Originally Posted by jane1187

All issues I'm sure you've considered but I'm sure there are some solutions.

It might be that you just end up with some dedicated members who keep the correct paperwork, but I doubt you'll get all keepers to do it.

In response to Mr Cyclone's concerns about anonymity and privacy you could perform the whole thing without ANY reference to the owner. If you had paperwork per animal there would be no need at all to put any information about the owner. If 'Fluffy' has 'Shep' as her grandfather on her stud document the document doesn't have to say who owned 'Shep'. That might help to entice owners who are concerned about privacy.

You are probably right, there might be a select few that actually give the idea ago, however a few keepers to start with are all it takes because then the offspring of 30 eggs would be sold on, either individually or as same sex pairs and then more paper work would be passed on to the new owners, they write down what needs to be written and they keep the paper work/documents safe and if they sell those Tylo's then they pass on the paper work to the new owner, and so on (I could go on forever with the scenario lol)

I dont actually see whats wrong with writing a Alias down such as "TyloDude" (for me) as there is no invasion of privacy really unless you go waving it about in front of public eyes or over the net. As I will say again, you don't have to use your actual name or put anything down that's going to give someone info other than you bred the original Tylo's to produce the Great Great Grandchildren, it will likely be kept amongst the Tylo keepers that actually know you and talk to anyway and the new comers that want your offspring you should keep in contact with anyway, in my opinion. The Document can't simply just have "Fluffy" or "Eddy" or whatever just listed, where did Fluffy come from? How do you know who owned Eddy so you don't end up buying his Mother in the future because Eddy's owner had to move abroad or had to sell them because he couldn't afford it? I don't see ANY invasion of privacy putting your Alias from here or making up new ones in all honesty. Your not telling people where you live or anything (which is more understandable cos I don't want someone turning up at my house either) so where is the lack of privacy? If all these Pedigree owners basically do it, why can't we? Yeah you're putting a name (which you have already told someone anyway) to your stock, but seriously whats wrong with that? You know Mr Cyclones alias already because you have dealt with him, so its not exactly private is it lol And that is all that would be recorded on the form too, as I gave reference to the Tortoise Paper Work, thats all thats done there too, they list where you bought the Hermann's from/who you bought it from. All I dont see any invasion, Most of you already know where people come from any way so how would that change and be invasive? Because some one 30 years down the line will see that you bred the original group/pair that provided that keeper the individuals he will have then? No, simply No. lol

I'm not forcing people to do it, don't get me wrong everyone can do what they like however there is a chance here to prevent blood lines inter breeding with each other in a few years time with long lost brothers and sisters or Mother and Fathers. It's done with Dogs, done with Horses, done with with every Zoo animal in the world, so what makes us any different? Apart from our animals don't react to names or stand out like Dog's or Horses would :)

[Rodrigo]

While i agree strongly with the sentiment of the thread, i have to say, i doubt it´s viable as it is intended. There is a point with any captive population when i think you just can´t avoid inbreeding. The best you can do is limit it, but this is not the end of the world. Some inbreeding is not necessarily a problem. It works as long as there are decent standards of selection. This is tricky, i know, but the way i see it, it´s the only way for the sustained viability of captive populations. Inbreeding is not some fatalistic thing, at least it doesn´t have to be. Laboratory mice should be enough to convince anyone that it´s not all doom when inbreeding enters the picture. The key for the success of limited or even in extreme cases, exclusive inbreeding, is in the selection. Promoting healthy selection standards is as important, if not more, as avoiding inbreeding.

I think this is a very nice iniciative, but you can´t fool yourself thinking that aaaaah, if i avoid inbreeding, everything will be ok. For trully sustainable population management, you need more, although it is a great start.

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by Azhael

While i agree strongly with the sentiment of the thread, i have to say, i doubt it´s viable as it is intended. There is a point with any captive population when i think you just can´t avoid inbreeding. The best you can do is limit it, but this is not the end of the world. Some inbreeding is not necessarily a problem. It works as long as there are decent standards of selection. This is tricky, i know, but the way i see it, it´s the only way for the sustained viability of captive populations. Inbreeding is not some fatalistic thing, at least it doesn´t have to be. Laboratory mice should be enough to convince anyone that it´s not all doom when inbreeding enters the picture. The key for the success of limited or even in extreme cases, exclusive inbreeding, is in the selection. Promoting healthy selection standards is as important, if not more, as avoiding inbreeding.

I think this is a very nice iniciative, but you can´t fool yourself thinking that aaaaah, if i avoid inbreeding, everything will be ok. For trully sustainable population management, you need more, although it is a great start.

Thank you, That's a really great post :) I totally agree with you, eventually inbreeding (drastic or non drastic) will occur and hopefully it can be controlled, selected and properly thought about in great detail before allowing it. Which I would prefer more than a new comer saying "I will buy these Male and Females off this breeder and get offspring". However, with all the new blood coming into the country through either Imports or New Blood Lines from abroad, I see no actual need of inbreeding in anyway for quite a few years to come. Limited inbreeding is better than throwing them about the place and not caring what will happen to them in the future :)

Inbreeding has happened a lot with many different species, simply because you run out of blood lines to breed with, Its going to happen and you can't avoid it! However in 10 years time when someone wants to buy another T.wenxianensis to breed with their specimens, he can look at the document provided by the old owner and say "Oh this is actually a from the same parents, so it makes them brother and sister so I wont buy them" so this person can look elsewhere for the specimen he needs thats either unrelated or a distant relation. But as you said Azheal it can't always be avoided and its not a thing thats going to cause Fatalities, but we can certainly keep it under control to keep blood lines from mixing up. There's so many creases to be ironed out but its all something to discuss or debate about! :)

[FrogEyes]

Inbreeding doesn't seem to be that great an issue, as already noted. Mice might not be a fair comparison though, because with the many millions of mice bred in captivity, they should have an extraordinary rate of evolution which will offset inbreeding. In addition, it only takes a few generations before everyone is related [discounting the fact they were to begin with] to one degree or another, but as reasonably outbred as can be expected.

It's a good idea in any case.

Where I see problems are here:
Tylototriton asperrimus - many specimens will not be this species and will not be identifiable. Right now, this plan is more likely to create hybridization among this group, rather than promote sound practices with a true species.

Tylototriton notialis - this species may actually be true T.asperrimus. It is morphologically and genetically virtually identical.

Last, if you exclude T.broadoridgus and T.dabienicus, but include T.wenxianensis, then how are you to know if the animals reported and being interbred are truly T.wenxianensis?

At the very least I think the system needs to include a way to confirm identifications, which is currently not possible for "T.asperrimus" without genetic typing or known geographic origins. One way around this would be to drop T.asperrimus, T.hainanensis, and T.notialis entirely until their systematics and identification are better worked out; and to include T.wenxianensis, T.dabienicus, and T.broadoridgus, which can be identified morphologically.

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by FrogEyes

Inbreeding doesn't seem to be that great an issue, as already noted. Mice might not be a fair comparison though, because with the many millions of mice bred in captivity, they should have an extraordinary rate of evolution which will offset inbreeding. In addition, it only takes a few generations before everyone is related [discounting the fact they were to begin with] to one degree or another, but as reasonably outbred as can be expected.

It isnt really a great issue if your doing it with distant relations but in all honesty, there is no need for inbreeding when you have a steady flow of WC specimens constantly imported into the country and getting new CB blood lines. Thank you for explaining a bit more about the Mice thing, I had heard something about it but didn't want to appear silly if I got it wrong!

Originally Posted by FrogEyes

It's a good idea in any case.

Where I see problems are here:
Tylototriton asperrimus - many specimens will not be this species and will not be identifiable. Right now, this plan is more likely to create hybridization among this group, rather than promote sound practices with a true species.

Tylototriton notialis - this species may actually be true T.asperrimus. It is morphologically and genetically virtually identical.

Last, if you exclude T.broadoridgus and T.dabienicus, but include T.wenxianensis, then how are you to know if the animals reported and being interbred are truly T.wenxianensis?

At the very least I think the system needs to include a way to confirm identifications, which is currently not possible for "T.asperrimus" without genetic typing or known geographic origins. One way around this would be to drop T.asperrimus, T.hainanensis, and T.notialis entirely until their systematics and identification are better worked out; and to include T.wenxianensis, T.dabienicus, and T.broadoridgus, which can be identified morphologically.

Thank you for saying it's a good idea, it has a lot of creases to iron out but eventually I think something could work out.

And hmmmm I didnt think about those two species a great deal actually and glad you brought it up. They aren't ones that are easy to come by, I don't think I have actually seen any imported in either but you bring up a good point. Maybe in the long run it would be better to add T.broadoridgus and T.dabienicus to the list and remove the other 3 which I have rarely even seen anyway, especially Hainanensis! Which I added just in case by some chance there might be people claiming they have them lol :)

[Sean]

Ino the head of herpetology at Chester Zoo. Keeps Studbooks for some Tylototriton species

[Rodrigo]

I used the example of the mice purely to show that inbreeding is not the ultimate evil, and that other factors are critical. I certainly do not advocate doing the same that was done to laboratory mice to the captive caudate populations.
You can´t single out inbreeding as the only important relevant factor, that was basically my point xD I didn´t mean to make further comparissons.

I understand that the influx of WC specimens from the pet-trade provides a source of genetic variation that is extremely valuable to the captive population´s long term management. However, i´d say that reducing or possibly eliminating (by sustitution for better methodologies) the WC pet-trade as it exists, should be the co-ultimate goal to be achieved with captive breeding (the other co-ultimate goal being the welfare of captive populations). That´s about all you can hope to achieve with captive breeding, reducing the impact on wild systems and guaranteing a future for the captive stock.
Relying on the pet-trade for new specimens carrying valuable variation is not acceptable from my point of view. Those specimens are necessary, but they can be obtained without the suffering and death of hundreds of animals and significant damage to the wild.

I consider the goal of reducing the impact on wild systems just as necessary as the goal to manage captive populations ins a sustainable way. The two things should go together, not one at the cost of the other.

I´m sorry if i´m overreaching or sounding like a dirty hippie, but i get excited when i see people trying to improve things xD

[TyloDude]

Originally Posted by Sean90

Ino the head of herpetology at Chester Zoo. Keeps Studbooks for some Tylototriton species

But not for Private Keepers lol because I don't imagine mine or anyone elses being on this stud book :/

[Rodrigo]

I know i´m annoying and deviating from the original topic, i´ll stop if anyone objects xD But i wanted to expand on something i said.

I said that an influx of wild specimens is necessary for the long term welfare of captive populations and that´s not necessarily true. It depends on what you want to achieve. Personally, i think there´s value in maintaining captive populations similar to their wild relatives even if it´s just because we know the wild example works, and therefore i think wild specimens are required as long as they can be obtained by responsible means and minimizing the impact of such collections to something that can be desmostrated to be sustainable. However, this is not required. You could in fact cut out all influence from wild populations and isolate the captive ones as an independent gene pool. And the thing is, this could work.
I´m only insisting on this, because it shows the critical importance of adequate standards for artificial selection and captive breeding management. If the captive gene pool were to become completely independent, the aplication of those standards could allow for indefinite sustainability of captive populations. They would evolve as a separate lineage and accumulate differences over time. Those differences, even if eventually dramatic, could be sustainable and produce no impact on individual welfare. You could eventually have a population of legless axolotls, or whatever, which would be, nevertheless, very healthy. You could end up with such an animal while retaining healthy levels of variation in the captive gene pool and not affecting the viability of the individuals (they would just loose the legs, because they are simply not needed anymore, for example). Try achieving that result using the current, generalized standards. The amount of suffering and the severity of the impact on individual welfare, would be massive. That´s because those standards are not centered in any way, shape or form, on health and welfare. There´s all sorts of possibilities while still being inside the frame of what´s viable (not all divergence need be negative). It pains me to say this, because i like my animals as close to what exists in the wild as possible, but it´s nevertheless true and i can´t pretend it wouldn´t be acceptable. This is for all the people who latch on to the excuse that, oh, well, you can´t prevent captive populations from undergoing domestication, so who cares. It is possible to have a captive population evolving in a viable way where the genetic welfare at a gene pool level is not compromised, and still get divergence and completely new stuff. You just get that divergence slowlier.
I´ve perhaps made the mistake, in the past, of giving the impression that i consider all form of artificial selection as abominable or inherenly doomed, but that is not the case. What i consider abominable is artificial selection at the cost of animal welfare and population genetics health. That´s the point where you cannot make any sacrifices and still pretend our hobby is a morally justifiable activity. I go further and would prefer to see as little change as possible, but this is an aspect where you can afford to make sacrifices without chucking morality out. That´s just not the case in the previous point.

Anyway, i just wanted to highlight once again the relevance of breeding standards as a critical element directly related to addressing the issue of inbreeding, because inbreeding is but one of those standards. This is in opposition to the point about wild populations, because you could keep the two separate. You can´t, however, to my mind, keep the issue of inbreeding separate from the issue of captive management standars. I think it´s an excellent start point, but you can´t restrict it that much. And now, i´ve made my point several times so i´ll shut up.