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Triturus arntzeni

This is a discussion on Triturus arntzeni within the Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; Since there doesnīt seem to be much photo-material online on Triturus arntzeni i will post some pics here. I have ...

Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. Triturus and its relatives (Ichthyosaura/Mesotriton, Lissotriton, and Ommatotriton) are a diverse and widespread group of newts. While mainly European, several species can be found in the Near and Middle East. Euproctus, the brook newts, are confined to Corsica and Sardinia.

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Old 20th September 2009   #1 (permalink)
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Default Triturus arntzeni

Since there doesnīt seem to be much photo-material online on Triturus arntzeni i will post some pics here. I have 1 male and 2 females, at the moment i am raising 5 larvae to.

Notice on some pics how you can see the silverygray coloration of the male, with the beautifull black dots and the marbled speckles on the back. I love this species!

Just a few days ago (15th) i put a male and female in an aquatic setup.
I will post pics every know and then to let you see how the newts develop from a dull terrestrial coloration to the aquatic looks! With the best pics in spring ofcourse. :)

As a starter, a pic of the first day in a aquatic set up!
Allso some pics of the newts now,5 days later, and a "nearmorph" and a larvae.
Attached Thumbnails
Triturus arntzeni-arntzeni-male-first-day-water-after-terrestrial-period-15-sept-09.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-tritrurus-arntzeni-female-5-days-after-being-put-aquartic-setup-sept19th-2009-2-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-tritrurus-arntzeni-male-5-days-after-being-put-aquartic-setup-sept19th-2009-2-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-tritrurus-arntzeni-male-5-days-after-being-put-aquartic-setup-sept19th-2009-3-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-tritrurus-arntzeni-pair-5-days-after-being-put-aquartic-setup-sept19th-2009.jpg  

Triturus arntzeni-triturus-arntzeni-larvae-near-morphing-getting-adult-spot-already-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-triturus-arntzeni-larvae-near-morphing-getting-adult-spot-already-2-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-triturus-arntzeni-larvae.jpg  



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Old 20th September 2009   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

wonderful newts congrats, cant wait to see them in full breeding dress
thanks for posting the picture



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Old 20th September 2009   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Beautiful animals. Looking forward to see the development.



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Old 26th September 2009   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

The crest is now slightly bigger after 10 days, bit no big difference yet!
Still,..i like the pics cause of the light, they are brighter and you can see the colors better, than you can in the former pics,..so i thought i just add them here!!
Attached Thumbnails
Triturus arntzeni-male-triturus-arntzeni-26-sept-2009-15-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-male-triturus-arntzeni-26-sept-2009-7-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-male-triturus-arntzeni-26-sept-2009-8-.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-male-triturus-arntzeni-26-sept-2009-13-.jpg  



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Old 30th September 2009   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Quote:
Originally Posted by huug View Post
The crest is now slightly bigger after 10 days, bit no big difference yet!
Still,..i like the pics cause of the light, they are brighter and you can see the colors better, than you can in the former pics,..so i thought i just add them here!!
Nice Huug! Looking forward to see the development!

Regards, Steven



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Old 30th September 2009   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Nice looking animals. Good luck with their breeding. Where is that species from?

Regards
Ken



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Old 30th September 2009   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

bulgaria and other balkan areas
cheers,



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Old 31st October 2009   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Here is an update on the male developing its crest!
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Triturus arntzeni-triturus-arntzeni-male-31-oct-2009.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-triturus-arntzeni-male-31-oct-2009-2-.jpg  



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Old 1st November 2009   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

wow! nice! Really hope those breed



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Old 17th November 2009   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Look pretty close to Tr.karelinii.

What is the official status of the species?

Uwe



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Old 21st November 2009   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

As far as i know, itīs not recognized as a species of its own. Iīm quite surprised to see that instead of being considered a subspecies of T.karelinii, some people are giving it species status....i would like to know why (iīm curious as to wether itīs a mistake, a personal decission or if the change has been made official and i missed it).



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Old 23rd November 2009   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

It used to be considered a subspecies of Triturus karelinii but as of May 2009 (I think it was May) it was elevated to species status.



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Old 25th November 2009   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Is there any literature to this staement?

Uwe



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Old 25th November 2009   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Quote:
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Is there any literature to this staement?

Uwe
If you can get a hold of this paper it will show you how it achieved full species status.

Multiple nuclear and mitochondrial genes resolve the branching orderof a rapid radiation of crested newts (Triturus, Salamandridae)G. Espregueira Themudo, B. Wielstra, J.W. Arntzen Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 52 (2009) 321–328



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Old 25th November 2009   #15 (permalink)
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I find taxonomy quite funny. every new technology that comes out, allows us to make the definition of a species more and more specific; thus totally redefining every part of our current taxonomic data, and restructuring phylogenetic trees, etc. When it really comes down to it, who's to say what the definition of a species over a subspecies is? it seems to me, that the distinction between the two is nebulous at best, and at some point, is it that important?

I remember having a semi firm grasp on taxonomy until I took botany classes where with hybridization and things like that, in many cases, species and subspecies distinctions of a plant are useless. It taught me that you have to be open minded about these things. What is the more interesting science? arguing over whether something is a species or subspecies? or studying things that are truly unknown? I understand that alot of these species redefinition papers are really looking at evolutionary backgrounds, and the redefinition is only a minor result of the findings. But still, does anyone else find these constant classifications annoying? hopefully genetics is as specific as we can get in terms of species analysis, and this is the last reclassification there will ever be . . .

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread with off topic ranting. I really just wanted to agree with Azhael and say, these look remarkably similar to T. karelinii.



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Old 28th November 2009   #16 (permalink)
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Got the literature from Hugo (thank you).

It seems convincing. I hope we get some inside views at the next Gersfeld meetings.

See you

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Old 18th January 2010   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Hey Everyone!

As i promised earlier, last year, here is the update on how an adult Triturus Arntzeni male looks like!

I love the species,...
Attached Thumbnails
Triturus arntzeni-061.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-063.jpg   Triturus arntzeni-067.jpg  



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Old 18th January 2010   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Wow what a huge crest , very nice animal
thanks for the update



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Old 19th January 2010   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

Quote:
Originally Posted by eldaldo View Post
I find taxonomy quite funny. every new technology that comes out, allows us to make the definition of a species more and more specific; thus totally redefining every part of our current taxonomic data, and restructuring phylogenetic trees, etc. When it really comes down to it, who's to say what the definition of a species over a subspecies is? it seems to me, that the distinction between the two is nebulous at best, and at some point, is it that important?

I remember having a semi firm grasp on taxonomy until I took botany classes where with hybridization and things like that, in many cases, species and subspecies distinctions of a plant are useless. It taught me that you have to be open minded about these things. What is the more interesting science? arguing over whether something is a species or subspecies? or studying things that are truly unknown? I understand that alot of these species redefinition papers are really looking at evolutionary backgrounds, and the redefinition is only a minor result of the findings. But still, does anyone else find these constant classifications annoying? hopefully genetics is as specific as we can get in terms of species analysis, and this is the last reclassification there will ever be . . .

Sorry, I don't mean to hijack the thread with off topic ranting. I really just wanted to agree with Azhael and say, these look remarkably similar to T. karelinii.


Actually I think both studies are very important. The real unknown things AND the studie of species. When they become a differend species in science, it will make it much easier to keep them separated. Some people buy a species without knowing the real findingplace, afterwards they buy the "same" species but from a total differend location and put them together in a tank, without knowing that they have 2 totally differend genes (other subspecies). Making species from subspecies will eventually avoid mixing genes...


Very Nice male Huug, thanks for posting!



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Old 22nd January 2010   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Triturus arntzeni

You made the point Stavroske.

If you get hands on animals with place of origin this is invaluable and you have to keep them separate.

With this precaution your breeding and observing becomes also scientifically relevant.

For example I keep my self two groups of T.karelinii, one from the "russian market" the other with exact place of origin. In the movemnet which is momentarily going on in karelinii/Kammmolchgroup this might get exciting.

Uwe




Last edited by Mark; 22nd January 2010 at 12:30. Reason: changed unvaluable to invaluable
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