The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store


Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

This is a discussion on Cristatus group egg problem - a legend? within the Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; Hi Sludge, thank you for the data. Azhael: "Uwe, a) may i ask why you still use the old clasification? ...

Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. Triturus and its relatives (Ichthyosaura/Mesotriton, Lissotriton, and Ommatotriton) are a diverse and widespread group of newts. While mainly European, several species can be found in the Near and Middle East. Euproctus, the brook newts, are confined to Corsica and Sardinia.

Like Tree1Likes


Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20th April 2010   #21 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi Sludge,

thank you for the data.

Azhael: "Uwe, a) may i ask why you still use the old clasification? b) You are free to do so"

Easy answer: a) because the animals donīt care. b) I never had a doubt about doing that.

Best Regards

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st April 2010   #22 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 84
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: vincent has given good advice and informationvincent has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi Uwe hows this then, this year I crossed a male Italian Crested with a German Crested female, she laid 50 eggs and two of them went duff before they hatched I have just counted them now and at present I have 40 approx larvae feeding well and growing.So it's not very scientific with a one off, so I will do it again for the next two years and then when this years offspring are mature I will report whether they are sterile and the % of eggs that are duff before they hatch. They are all together in a heavily planted tank and I'm just going to let nature take it's course and see how many survive, normally I separate them into individual little tubs and feed them up individually when they get a bit of size on but I don't think I will get 40 out to maturity but it's so frustrating loosing the eggs before you get them to hatch I just thought I would see what happened though, just 2 of them duff was a vast improvement.



vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010   #23 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi Vincent,

thank you for this data. This is very interesting and actually exactly what I am looking for.

As Azhael emphasized that this crossing should experience the same sad rate of hatching, if you believe in the literature.

So my idea is to collect data, like yours, and compare that with the claims made in literature.

Best Regards

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010   #24 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 84
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: vincent has given good advice and informationvincent has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by uwe View Post
Hi Vincent,

thank you for this data. This is very interesting and actually exactly what I am looking for.

As Azhael emphasized that this crossing should experience the same sad rate of hatching, if you believe in the literature.

So my idea is to collect data, like yours, and compare that with the claims made in literature.

Best Regards

Uwe
The thing is a few do die off as they grow and mature but to lose 50% BEFORE you start is very hard, I like other people have had total loses of eggs I got from other people but these crosses seem quite fit and healthy.I have lost a few as they start to nip each other ,but with plenty of food who knows how many will survive



vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010   #25 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 122
Gallery Images: 9
Comments: 3
Rep: stavroske has given good advice and informationstavroske has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
Hi Uwe hows this then, this year I crossed a male Italian Crested with a German Crested female, she laid 50 eggs and two of them went duff before they hatched I have just counted them now and at present I have 40 approx larvae feeding well and growing.So it's not very scientific with a one off, so I will do it again for the next two years and then when this years offspring are mature I will report whether they are sterile and the % of eggs that are duff before they hatch. They are all together in a heavily planted tank and I'm just going to let nature take it's course and see how many survive, normally I separate them into individual little tubs and feed them up individually when they get a bit of size on but I don't think I will get 40 out to maturity but it's so frustrating loosing the eggs before you get them to hatch I just thought I would see what happened though, just 2 of them duff was a vast improvement.
What are you going to do with the offspring ones they are mature? Are you going to sell them or try to create a new specie? I don't understand what the real improvement is about crossing them. Oke you might get a higher % of hatching eggs, but it's no longer a natural specie... If nature makes a mistake, most of the time it has it's own solution to deal with it. Fact that 50% of the eggs die and it's still the same for so many generations, might have a natural (good) reason which we are not yet aware of. Crossing them really doesn't look right to me...

regards,

Steven



stavroske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd April 2010   #26 (permalink)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 32
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Couldnīt agree more, Steven.
Just because we donīt understand how the chomosomal situation of Triturus works, and how it benefits the species, it doesnīt mean it doesnīt. If the whole crested group has the same condition it means there must be a very good reason.
Also, to anyone allowing hybrids to be made, please keep record of this hybridisations, and if the resulting animals move hands, please notify the genetic background so that people know and can avoid further hybridisation. The last thing we need is to artificially loose genetic integrity (they do hybridize in nature but thatīs their business).



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010   #27 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 84
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: vincent has given good advice and informationvincent has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azhael View Post
Couldnīt agree more, Steven.
Just because we donīt understand how the chomosomal situation of Triturus works, and how it benefits the species, it doesnīt mean it doesnīt. If the whole crested group has the same condition it means there must be a very good reason.
Also, to anyone allowing hybrids to be made, please keep record of this hybridisations, and if the resulting animals move hands, please notify the genetic background so that people know and can avoid further hybridisation. The last thing we need is to artificially loose genetic integrity (they do hybridize in nature but thatīs their business).
These will only be owned by me and possibly two other people who are interested in the experiment results. Interestingly one of my friends when he was touring Europe collecting newts etc [PRE 1980] said he came across hybrids showing characteristics of both local specie occurring naturally, He is at present trying to find the old photos. So what happens to these in the wild, do they walk around with a don't mate with me sign on them .No but if they then cross with pure stock do they improve viability of the stock, constant inbreeding with a small genetic pool causes major problems



vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010   #28 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Neotenic_Jaymes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 970
Gallery Images: 46
Comments: 2
Rep: Neotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Just to add more emphasis to the 50/50 natural abortion rate. I have experienced the 50/50 die off. A lot of other keepers I know have dealt with the 50/50 die off as well. I've witnessed known cases of almost 90% success rate in Itchyosaura. I have yet to breed any Lissotritons so I can't give any personal expierence about them. I'm sure the Triturus 50/50 natural abortion rate is not a legend. I respect the the new classifications as well.



__________________
Guns don't Kill people LAZERS do!
Neotenic_Jaymes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd April 2010   #29 (permalink)
Member
 
huug's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 37
Posts: 72
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 6
Rep: huug has given good advice and informationhuug has given good advice and informationhuug has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi guys,

I must be honest i havent read this whole topic.

I just want to add my experience on this matter.
I have been watching T.cristatus eggs in three different ponds two times over the last two weeks. What i noticed was that a lot of eggs were infertile. I did not count them, but i am sure it could have been at least about half of all eggs!

So this i saw in nature, and i notice the effect allso with my own triturus species, where my karelinii have a higher % (about 80% i guess) of bad eggs, half developing, where carnifex and dobro and marm clearly have less bad eggs.



__________________
True wisdom begins with admitting you do not know anything!
huug is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010   #30 (permalink)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 32
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vincent View Post
These will only be owned by me and possibly two other people who are interested in the experiment results. Interestingly one of my friends when he was touring Europe collecting newts etc [PRE 1980] said he came across hybrids showing characteristics of both local specie occurring naturally, He is at present trying to find the old photos. So what happens to these in the wild, do they walk around with a don't mate with me sign on them .No but if they then cross with pure stock do they improve viability of the stock, constant inbreeding with a small genetic pool causes major problems
There is a huge difference between naturally ocurring hybrids and captive-made ones.
Itīs true that the cristatus complex often has some degree of genetic introgression in those areas where two species meet. This however happens naturally, within animals that naturally share the same habitat and therefore are adapted to it, and in many many cases the genetic introgression happened several generations before, the norm being same-species reproduction.
When you compare this to randomly mixing individuals of two species in captivity, there really is a big difference.

Anyway, no matter my point of view on the matter, you are free to do what you want, i just hope you keep track of all of them.



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th April 2010   #31 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi Huug, hi James,

thanks for the reply. Interesting is also the observation in nature.

So I will keep you posted on my progress, but it may experience 50/50 rate too.Lets see.

Its always wise to challange literature, if there is not enough evidence around. But your responses and inputs convinced me.

See you

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th April 2010   #32 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 84
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: vincent has given good advice and informationvincent has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi all I think we really need to see if crossing the same species but from totally different geographical locations ie a Russian Great Crested with a French one has any effect, unfortunately Great Crested are totally protected over here so it will probably have to be done by you guys in mainland Europe.I know they are not newts but I have some bombina varigata that are from a group first bred in the 1970s' the owner every two years tries to pick up one or two individuals from other people to maintain genetic viability to keep them ticking over .Now I'am nearly 50 yrs old and there are areas I know of that contained amphibians of all sorts they are now housing estates and football pitches, filled in , behind my house was a large pond full of toads and newts even GCN''s I told the authorities and basically they told me to p**** *ff its now a by-pass we don't know how often newts migrated between different ponds or how eggs were transferred from ponds accidently to keep viability. We don't have a chance now as we cant turn the clock back but it would be good to try and ease the egg problem to try perhaps with a new blood line introduced every couple of years to keep your stock healthy how many of us have bred from a pair, only to use the offspring as our breeding stock never introducing fresh blood.Cheers.



vincent is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th April 2010   #33 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi Vincent,

I think that the animals and species have survived for several thousand years now without interfering by man (as cross-breeding would be) and we should do it the same way in the future.

I agree that most animals are extinct by destruction of habitat. This should be challanged.

See you

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2010   #34 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 206
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: JM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hello.

My reaction may be a bit late, but this topic sounds like a very old story.

I think the joined article answers definitively this question.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Wallace 1994.pdf (230.4 KB, 1056 views)



JM29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2010   #35 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi,

thank you for the full article.

I am just curios if the data could be proven, which is not too difficult.

Best Regards

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th April 2010   #36 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 206
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: JM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Well, it depends on what you consider proven.

These chromosomic peculiarities have been studied mainly between 1970 and 1995, on T. cristatus (4 subspecies at that time, which are now recognised as true species) and T. marmoratus (which was not yet split in marmoratus and pygmaeus). See the summary in attached for more details.

Now, If you really want to check if all Triturus populations have this heteromorphism implying 50% embryo mortality, it might be as difficult as proving that all crows are black...

Sincerely yours,
JM
Attached Files
File Type: doc Crested chrom.doc (27.5 KB, 104 views)



JM29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2010   #37 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 206
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: JM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

OK

So here is the summary of another (old) article, saying this has been observed and studied on the 4 ssp (now true species) of Triturus cristatus, and also on T. marmoratus. I haven't access to the full text.

Sincerely,
Attached Files
File Type: doc Crested chrom.doc (27.5 KB, 114 views)



JM29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2010   #38 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 206
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: JM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and informationJM29 has given good advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

For a bit more details, see this other article.

Chromosome 1 heteromorphism is considered caracteristic of members of the cristatus-marmoratus complex (including carnifex, karelini, dobrogicus).

I think it's proven for these species.
Conversely, formerly other triturus (Ichtyosaura, Ommatotriton), Lissotriton) don't present this peculiarity.

Wether Calotriton is also heteromorphic is an open question (see Raffaelli, 2007).

Sincerely,
Attached Files
File Type: pdf McGregor et al.pdf (2.53 MB, 502 views)



JM29 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2010   #39 (permalink)
Uwe
(uwe)
Member
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 57
Posts: 197
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: uwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and informationuwe has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

Hi JM,

thank you.

Uwe



uwe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2010   #40 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 19
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: drew121 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Cristatus group egg problem - a legend?

I seem to find the first lot of eggs are no good , then later ones are fine . I wouldnt say as much as 50% are infertile though



drew121 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

LinkBack
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Triturus cristatus cristatus stavroske Wanted in the European Union (including the UK) 2 4th November 2009 21:42
European Newt Group(Social Group) caudatadude28 Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. 0 10th July 2009 02:21
Colinb (UK)...Legend Cizza Testimonials 2 13th October 2007 18:17
T. cristatus got bit! audrey Newt and Salamander Help 6 27th May 2007 20:12
Taxonomic status of Cristatus group in the Balkans rubén Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. 0 12th November 2004 11:21


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:48.