Pyrrhogaster which subspecie is it ? - photos inside

[WilliamBlake]

Hey all,

I'd really like to find one female for my 2 "gay" guys, the problem is, no one can find for sure from which pyrrho subspecie they belong.

They live in a tank with 3 Sasayamae (2 males one female), the Sasayamae female doesn't seem to interest their mating behavior.

They are quite smaller than my pyrrhos, have a smoother skin, and have a more aquatic behavior.

They clearly have a narrow-ended tail (you know, a (long)filament ended tail -excuse me i don't know the word in english) - you'll see the end of the tail on the pictures (the bigger male has a narrow ended tail too now, but when i took the pictures he wasn't mating so it seems less obvious).

Obviously they are 2 males from the same pyrrho subspecie, but strange fact one is much smaller than the other (the bigger one is tosay in "mating" dress so his cloaca is enormous, and his tail is filament-narrow ended. The bigger one is +/- as big as my other male Sasayamae, but the small one is as big as, say, a big female orientalis.

The smaller one is always very "horny" (excuse my approximative words i'm french) and he always tries to seduce the other male, but almost never tries to seduce my sasayamae female.
The bigger one ignores him, so when the smaller is too excited he bites the bigger one's side or tail.

According to those elements, i can almost exclude all the known pyrrhogaster subspecies...

So here are the pictures, maybe you guys can help me find their ID so i have more chance to find them a girl and stop this much immoral homosexual behavior (this is humor :-)

[Ken Worthington]

Hi and welcome!
Here is a link that might be of some help; Caudata Culture Species Entry - Cynops pyrrhogaster - Japanese firebelly

[Eva]

Also check out the link at the end
Mophological Charactaristic of Cynops pyrrhogaster
..and wait for the pyrrho-enthusiast Joost to see what he says

[WilliamBlake]

Thanks for the answers.
I already know these links, but they only show belly colorations of the animals which is not enough for me as i'm not a pro and behavior and global body shape is important too

I forgot to tell these two buddies wear nice blue reflects when they are in mating dress (on these old pictures only the smallest seems to a few blue reflects.)


So, to conclude :

- more aquatic than sasayame
- typical belly colour pattern, one has almost no black stain, the other a few but typically disposed (near to kanto, or tohoku)
- thinner shape, (less "fatty") and smoother skin
- one of the two is "much" smaller whereas obviously of the same gender and subspecie
- filament-ended tail and blue reflects when mating (so they arent Hiroshima as i was tôle by the man who sold them to me)
- the more active male sometimes bit the other one (not frequently) when very excited or frustrated

I hope Joost or Azahel or someone will tell me what to do to have one chance to find them a girl, because i find them sooooooo nice, moreover they havé a fine behavior, verry funny, always hyperactive and very expressive newts compared to my other Cynops.

[Rodrigo]

Well, i wish i could help but i´m very unsure of what these guys are. Joost is definitely the guy to ask about this, and even so, he might not be able to give you a specific ID without locality data.
My best guess, and it is just that, a guess, is that they could, perhaps be Tohoku prefecture....

Do they show a lighter/greyish coloration when in full breeding mode?

[WilliamBlake]

Yes Azahel they do show light grey/blue nuances when in breeding dress as i said in mu second post.
They are wild caught i guess but couldnt know what location.

[joost]

It's almost impossible to say what race they are, if the locality isn't known. I wouldn't guess for the Tohoku race, 'cause they tend to be much larger than other forms. The most common form (besides the sasayama-subspecie) is the Kanto form, which it could be.

[WilliamBlake]

Ok thanks a lot, thats what i was told on my favourite French caudata forum, "Urodèles" so now i'm sure I've had the guess of a lot of specialists.
I better discard this idea and get a new sasayamae female for my other males, or wait one day maybe i'll find a female who look like my buddies and buy it.

I thought Kanto specimens didn't show the narrow-filament-ended tail like mine ? and can some Kanto show a light blue coloration like mine ? I read they usually don't, but thats maybe some do...

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Joost

The most common form (besides the sasayama-subspecie) is the Kanto form, which it could be.

Admittedly, I know very little about distinguishing the different C.pyrrhogaster races, but I thought I'd mention that when I saw this I immediately thought, "Gee, I wonder if these are Kanto race?"

[Michael Shrom]

They look like my Kanto. My Kanto have the long filament. You can get a good guess at what they are but you can't just look at them and be 100% certain they are 100% Kanto.

Here's a picture of one of my Kanto laying eggs.

[Michael Shrom]

C. p. Kanto

[joost]

Originally Posted by michael

You can get a good guess at what they are but you can't just look at them and be 100% certain they are 100% Kanto.

That's right. Every race has some differences. Here is for example also a Kanto race (from Kanagawa prefecture):

Also you can check out my albums for more pics of different pyrrho's.

[WilliamBlake]

Hey

Your right Joost

You have one female in your gallery who could be more or less of the same race as my buddies

Caudata.org - Member Galleries - C. pyrrhogaster female unknown collecting locality


Caudata.org - Member Galleries - C. pyrrhogaster female unknown collecting locality

(sorry no visible picture i post from my phone)

What do you think ? Look like tohoku

[joost]

Originally Posted by WilliamBlake

Hey

Your right Joost

You have one female in your gallery who could be more or less of the same race as my buddies

Caudata.org - Member Galleries - C. pyrrhogaster female unknown collecting locality


Caudata.org - Member Galleries - C. pyrrhogaster female unknown collecting locality

(sorry no visible picture i post from my phone)

What do you think ? Look like tohoku

There is no use to guess what race they are. As I said, it's impossible. The 2 females are without a known locality, and I probably never will find out where they come from. Soon I'm able to get a male from the same group, so breeding is possible, and if I do, the offspring will be sold as C. pyrrhogaster 'unknown collecting locality'. If you are able to get a Kanto partner, and breeding is succesfull, you only can say they are C. pyrrhogaster Kanto (without more details).

[Molch]

based on this, I now wonder if my male is a Kanto. He looks almost identical to the OP's male and he has the long tail filament too. He does, however, put his hindfoot on the female's neck when courting (or he tries) - isn't that a sassayame characteristic?

I attached a pic of him.

[Rodrigo]

Your male is sasayamae, Molch, i´m pretty certain. The coloration as well as the behaviour match that subspecies.

[Molch]

that's good to know. Because he's making out with my Sassayame females right now.

But he DOES look exactly like the OP's and he has a very different look and belly color than my other 3, who have the finely speckled belly w. the white dots...

[Rodrigo]

Try to post a picture of the belly, then. Adult females and males have different belly patterns, and they might seem like they are very different when in fact they are the same. It looked to me like the belly in the animal of the picture was typical sasayamae, but i could be wrong, of course.

[Molch]

here are two pics of my mystery male and one pic of the typical sasayame belly pattern of my other 3 (2 females and one male) who all look a lot alike.

He is also a few cm smaller than the other three.

[Rodrigo]

He looks sasayamae to me, but he also looks like he has not fully developed. You might see some future minor changes in his belly coloration.