Cynops orientalis with cynops pyrrhogaster?

[sophie]

I tried to do a search before asking but could not find anything... would these 2 sub species be safe housed together?

[otterwoman]

I don't think they'd hurt each other, but is there a chance they'd interbreed? I don't know, but I don't think it would be a good idea.

[Azhael]

They are not subspecies, they are completely different species. In fact they are probably going to be separated into two different genera soon.
I´d advice against mixing them because although they are not agressive or territorial, female pyrrhogaster get substantially bigger than any orientalis and would definitely outcompete them. Also, there´s the problem of possible hybridation as Dawn has pointed out.
Aditionally, if you get both species from pet-shops they will most certainly be WC and carry patogens that could be potentially lethal to each other.

Anyway, what you have to consider is that mixing them will carry risks....and what´s better to avoid them entirely by keeping them separately? or taking those risks just to satisfy your desire of watching them together? (which incidentally has no advantages whatsoever...)

[Yahilles]

They are not subspecies, they are completely different species. In fact they are probably going to be separated into two different genera soon.

NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Liberum veto!

[eljorgo]

LOL Janusz... I had the same thought!!

[Azhael]

xDDDD why??
C.pyrrhogaster will probably still be Cynops....it´s C.orientalis that might be changed to Hypselotriton.
I think the change is necessary. The differences are obvious.

[Yahilles]

I know they're obvious... but i can't imagine to think about any name other than Cynops orientalis... if they change it, entire world's gonna fall as EVERYBODY remembers CFBN as Cynops and if any scientist says "i have Hypselotriton orientalis", all gray people gonna say "WTH are you talking about man?!". It would be easier for USA to end their wars in Afghanistan and Iraq than for scientists to establish the new genus name! As well someone can try to change axolotl's name!

[tmarmoratus]

^ Eh, what are you gonna do? If a change in genus categorization is necessary, then it needs to be done.

[Azhael]

xD I do understand your point of view. It really would be VERY weird to not say Cynops orientalis...it just rolls off your tongue...
I agree with Tmarmoratus, though, obviously, taxonomy is not there to satisfy the masses, if the change is necessary, i say WELCOME!! :)

[Yahilles]

I even accepted Ichtyosaura which is a horror for me... Hypselotriton sounds better, anyway i have to accept this but this time i'm gonna always write "Hypselotriton (Cynops) orientalis" until i won't see a beginner question about Hypselotriton orientalis on polish forum (polish caudata-culture is retarded, far behind rest of Europe!)!

[Joost]

Beginners talk about Chinese fire bellied newts. Most beginners haven't a clue about their scientistic name.

[paul_b]

Originally Posted by Yahilles

.... (polish caudata-culture is retarded, far behind rest of Europe!)!

@Yahilles, and if you don't accept correct change of systematic name - it will retarded more and more. But to write Hypselotriton (Cynops) orientalis is a good way for each country!

If this systematic is correct, we should not discuss to use the right name,
but
if it is true that hybridisation of orientalis and pyrrhogaster is possible (I can't believe), there is no room for two different genera!

Paul

[Azhael]

Why not Paul?
There are examples of other animals which can hybridize despite being in different genera. Hybrids are extremely complex and sometimes close relations can´t hybridize, but not so close ones can...it´s fascinating really....

[Yahilles]

if it is true that hybridisation of orientalis and pyrrhogaster is possible (I can't believe), there is no room for two different genera!

It is possible.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-a...-cyanurus.html
[Jennewt's post]

[paul_b]

@Yahilles,
I know this treat!

Originally Posted by Jennewt

I am working with a scientist who is interested in how this crossbreeding is possible at the genetic level. He has DNA samples from both adults and a hybrid offspring.

But I will wait with an estimation until the scientist gives his result!

Paul

[paul_b]

@Azhael

Originally Posted by Azhael

Why not Paul?
There are examples of other animals which can hybridize despite being in different genera. Hybrids are extremely complex and sometimes close relations can´t hybridize, but not so close ones can...it´s fascinating really....

Yes, different Amphibian and Reptilian species which seem to belong to different genera - but it is a manmade systematic and in this cases the genera are not correct and must be changed.
Paul

[Azhael]

I do see your point, but i think some of the intergeneric hybrids are trully from different genera...such as Lampropeltis x Pantherophis....there´s just no way those are the same genus...

[paul_b]

Hi Azhael,
I think its a definition "what is a genus" - and I see it like I described it!
But I know that there are different ideas!

Our systematic can not show the reality but should help us to have a better understanding!
So, back to our Cynops - they seem to be different enough to build two genus, but if hybridisation is possible, there is no necessary to make a new genus, then they are close enough for one.
Then better we should talk about subgenus.

Paul

[Joost]

I would like to give my opinion.

We are not scientists (may-be a few), but hobbyists. Let's keep it that way. I also read such articles with great pleassure, although I don't understand everything.
Years ago, salamanders/newts were placed in genera on base of looks and behaviour. These days scientists can do more and more (DNA etc.). If scientists can show with some DNA-proof (or what ever) that a salamander/newt should belong to another genus, so be it.

Cross breeding between different species, we shouldn't do as hobbyists.. At the end there are no pure blood species anymore.

[Jennewt]

Originally Posted by paul_b

if it is true that hybridisation of orientalis and pyrrhogaster is possible (I can't believe), there is no room for two different genera!

Paul

They can hybridize. If you want more details, let me know. As Rodrigo said, there are other examples of hybridization between 2 genera.