The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store


Genetic impossibilities?

This is a discussion on Genetic impossibilities? within the Pacific Giant Salamanders (Dicamptodon) forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; Hi- I came across an ad for someone claiming to have a Dicamptodon tenebrosus crossed with Abystoma tigrinum. I thought ...

Pacific Giant Salamanders (Dicamptodon) Found only in the Northwest of the United States of America, the (currently) 4 species of this genus are the largest and heaviest land-living salamanders in the world.

Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 9th March 2009   #1 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 42
Posts: 14
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: zonbonzovi has shown reliable knowledgezonbonzovi has shown reliable knowledge
Default Genetic impossibilities?

Hi-

I came across an ad for someone claiming to have a Dicamptodon tenebrosus crossed with Abystoma tigrinum. I thought this was an impossiblity? The photos sent look like tenebrosus. I will try to edit & post as they exceed the max size for attachments here. Any thoughts on the biological end of things? Cheers...



zonbonzovi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2009   #2 (permalink)
Caudata.org Donor
 
Nathan050793's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 24
Posts: 828
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Nathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.orgNathan050793 is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

This sounds highly unlikely. Did they breed the two species themselves? Both of those species are extremely difficult to breed in captivity. Dicamptodon are now part of Ambystoma, but I still find this hard to believe. Waiting for photos.



__________________
Useful links:
Caudata Culture Care Sheets FAQ Care Articles

Wollemi
(Look around you)
-Australian Aboriginal saying

Nathan050793 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th March 2009   #3 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 59
Posts: 649
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: rigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

I cant see why it would be impossible ,the breeding behavior is similar i believe, similar size. You get it in snakes where different species can cross breed ie corns and kings.Where mating behavior is completely different such as red spotted newts which go into amplexus and the similar sized smooth newt for example doesn't its highly unlikely.



rigsby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2009   #4 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 27
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: BMOC is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Any more on this subject?



BMOC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2009   #5 (permalink)
JJS
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 8
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: JJS has started on the right path
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Certainly its true that some species do hybridize, even in the wild, but to hybridize you have to be pretty closely related to start with. I rather get the feeling that these two species aren't close enough. Even if they are both in Ambystoma now, they appear to belong to clearly different groups within the genus.



JJS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th March 2009   #6 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 23
Posts: 122
Gallery Images: 8
Comments: 4
Rep: 454 has shown reliable knowledge
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Dicamptodon breed in fast moving cold streams, and creeks. Dicamptodon larvae takes years to metamorph too, and a lot of larvae remain neotonic. In my opinion it would be very impossible.



__________________
<---------xX-BC-Xx----------->
454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009   #7 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 1
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Arboreal Boids has started on the right path
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Though I'm a bit late on this conversation, I agree with BC. The adaptations and life styles of Dicampts & Ambystoma tigrinum are very different and in the wild I would doubt they would ever meet together. With Tiger Salamanders spend a lot of their life in quite warm ponds & lakes and Dicampts spendy their time mostly in or around cold fast flowing streams with little sediment. In captivity if you were to try to breed these one or the other would be at risk from the conditions in which the other needs to breed.
Now as for Lampropeltis & Pantherophis (Elaphe) guttata, these 2 genus are extremely closely related. The 3 U.S. genus (Pantherophis, Lampropeltis, & Pituophis) are closely related and have a much adaptations/behaviors/etc in common. These all often inhabit the same types of environments in the U.S. and are known to occasionally hybridize with one another. Though the offspring are usually "mules" (infertile), they have over many trials in captivity successfully had offspring which were fertile. Captive breedings were even able to accomplish a breeding which led to like a 50% Bull Snake x 25% Cali Kingsnake x 25% Corn Snake. There have been some other unusual hybrids in snakes (in captivity) which haven't proven fertile to my knowledge; Woma & Carpet Python, Ball x Jungle Carpet Python, & Carpet Python x Macklot's Python. Though snakes use chemosensory as well to detect mates, their courtship is pretty similar and I wouldn't be surprized if their pheromones weren't much different in subfamilies.
Note 1: Dealing with a good handful of Corn Snakes, I know that some individuals would court a hose if they thought they would get lucky.
TTFN,
Mark
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mark_leppin/



Arboreal Boids is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009   #8 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 59
Posts: 649
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: rigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.orgrigsby is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Know what you mean about corns and hose pipes Mark i have some myself, just a point though ,nowhere does it say the cross breeding took place in the wild, i read somewhere the Japanese are breeding tiger sals so maybe it could have been captive bred.



rigsby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th March 2009   #9 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 23
Posts: 122
Gallery Images: 8
Comments: 4
Rep: 454 has shown reliable knowledge
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

I agree that they could have bred in captivity. It seems possible if both a neotonic tiger salamander, and a neotonic Dicamptodon bred. It seems that aquatic salamanders bred much more easily in captivity.



__________________
<---------xX-BC-Xx----------->

Last edited by Jacquie; 17th March 2009 at 22:47. Reason: Fixed spelling errors.
454 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th May 2009   #10 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 42
Posts: 14
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: zonbonzovi has shown reliable knowledgezonbonzovi has shown reliable knowledge
Default Re: Genetic impossibilities?

Thanks for the replies, all. When I sent a message back to the owner asking of more details on how it came to be "crossbred", the replies stopped. I speculate that it was probably poached here in Washington, and the undereducated owner was looking for a means to unload it & make a quick buck.



zonbonzovi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
genetic, impossibilities, impossibilities?

LinkBack
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Belly Color - Genetic? Age? or Nutrition? achiinto Fire-Belly & Sword-Tail Newts (Cynops & Hypselotriton) 16 22nd November 2008 02:33
Genetic Diversity? Mustang23 Axolotl General Discussion 3 10th November 2008 19:39
Genetic Mutants heather Axolotl General Discussion 3 29th September 2005 22:13
Bent Tail - Is it genetic? helen Sick Axolotl? 17 13th June 2005 23:43


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:47.