The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store


The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

This is a discussion on The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri within the Near and Middle Eastern Newts (Neurergus) forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; Well what I thought could never happen has happened. My three adult Neurergus kaiseri died over the space of perhaps ...

Near and Middle Eastern Newts (Neurergus) Arguably the most beautiful newts in the world, this Asian genus is highly desired by many hobbyists.

Like Tree10Likes


Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 6th July 2004   #1 (permalink)
john
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Well what I thought could never happen has happened. My three adult Neurergus kaiseri died over the space of perhaps 3 days of causes unknown, though all shared similar symptoms. Each in turn began to refuse food and then the skin would start to turn milky coloured, with a vague sense of white whisps (as if the skin was undergoing necrofication while the animal was still alive) and then death.

From milky colouration to death was perhaps less than 24 hours, and they were eating fine only a few days before hand.

I have not changed their setup type in nearly 2 years and it's taken me over a week to work up the will to discuss this. It really was heartbreaking and this is compounded by the fact that I have no idea what I did wrong. There were no extremes of temperature, their tank water had been changed only a week before (same procedure that I always use) and they had a diet of earthworms, daphnia (which they loved) and thawed frozen bloodworm.

I did nothing out of the ordinary with them. They were living aquatically but they had a large area of moss on to which they could climb if they wished to leave the water (which they rarely, if ever do for most of the year).

I had heard stories like this before (Christoph Bork in Germany told me of a similar experience a few years ago) but I never thought it would happen to me because I had raised 6 of these from small tiny larvae given to me by a generous UK breeder (who has and will remain anonymous, as I'm sure he wishes). I lost two of these as escaping metamorphs (you can poo-poo me on that but if you think a Cynops is a monkey, then a kaiseri is a Spiderman and it can fit through spaces you'd never believe possible), and a small one was bullied by its tank mates around metamorphosis, dying from a bad injury (they became quite aggressive at metamorphosis for a short period of time). After my problems with escapes I thought I had it all figured out and now this.

It's experiences like this (and I know we all have them occasionally, to a lesser or greater extent - heaven knows I've had mine) that have led to me giving up (giving or selling) most of my collection to others over the last 2 years. I've no intention of ever again acquiring anything other than an "easy" species, which now joins with my other promise to myself to never acquire wild-caught adults of any species.

So now I have just my axolotls (thanks Claire), Cynops ensicauda popei (thanks Martin and TJ-san) and verrucosus.



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #2 (permalink)
david
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Sorry to hear about your loss John. Any chance the earthworms, daphnia, or frozen bloodworms were tainted somehow?



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #3 (permalink)
john
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Thanks for the condolence. Well the thing is that all of my animals eat the same foods (there are really only 3 things on offer: daphnia [and whatever is in the daphnia culture with them], frozen bloodworms and chopped earthworms. So something else should be effected too but the other animals are all right as rain.



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #4 (permalink)
david
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Just a thought. I was just thinking maybe you got some worms that were tainted by insecticides or something, but if your other animals are fine, then that rules that out.

(Message edited by dln on July 06, 2004)



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #5 (permalink)
ralf
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Sorry to hear about the fate of your animals, John. In his report on the "Molchregister" (newt registry) for Neurergus crocatus, Günter Schultschik describes a phenomenon which seems to affect especially late semiadults of this species leading to losses in offspring of up to 100 % within a very short period of time.

http://www.ag-urodela.de/molchregist...20crocatus.htm

The affected animals often seemed to suffer from non-specific bacterial infections (Aeromonads).
In Günter Schultschiks opinion there might be a phase of overall hormonal changes during this developmental stage, depressing the immune system and leaving them very susceptible to infections, which might cause no harm in any other life phase.
Maybe something similar may affect the sister species N. kaiseri as well.

Ralf



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #6 (permalink)
matthew
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

That's a great pity John. I was so very sorry to read this news. Hope an answer can be arrived at, somehow.



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #7 (permalink)
isaiah
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

What a shame.



  Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2004   #8 (permalink)
edward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi John,
Based on the rapidity of death I would also suspect an infection of one of the aeromonads given the information seems to have ruled out a poisioning.
I understand your reasoning but anything that stresses the amphibian runs the risk of causing problems like this whether it is an easy species or a difficult one.
I have lost "bullet proof" animals to items like this (animals like bullfrogs) but have not had problems with delicate species such as Epidobates silverstoni or Bolitoglossids (maybe because most of the bolitos didn't acclimate well...).

At some point I hope you reconsider and try them again as you put honest efforts into keeping the animals and share the resulting information which is important. Sometimes you do have bad luck.

Ed



  Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2004   #9 (permalink)
frank
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi John,

Sorry to hear that. I think that it is very important in the keeping of Neurergus species to keep them DRY for most of the year. I keep my kaiseri dry (of course with a small water bowl) from April through November (the time at which the male starts to develop a swelling in the cloaca region and enters the water bowl). I have seen similar problems at another keeper with N. crocatus juveniles, kept aquatic. All of the juveniles died from Aeromonas sepsis (bacteriologically confirmed). Aeromonas infections are, in my opinion, only able to cause disease in stressed (environmentally e.g. temperature, poor water quality, low oxygen...) salamanders. I have been at the breeding sites of N. strauchii (strauchii and barani). The animals enter the water only for a very short period of time (as Sergé Bogaerts already mentioned in another discussion).



  Reply With Quote
Old 7th July 2004   #10 (permalink)
Site Contributor
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 4,471
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: TJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgTJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgTJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgTJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgTJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgTJ is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default

Very sorry to hear the bad news, John. I don't mean to sound insensitive but did you freeze or otherwise preserve any of the adults for a post-mortem?



TJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2004   #11 (permalink)
john
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Thanks for the good will everyone. I think Frank may have something there but what bugged me was that the adults never got out of the water/showed much interest in it. Frank, my animals were gilled right to adulthood and only lost the gills over the last few months. Ed's suggestion makes some sense to me but I can't understand why all three would go.

Given this species' sensitivity to vibrations and lights, I had always kept them in an unlit tank and they never had a filter or any other water disturbance except a small and very weak airstone when they were larvae.

As to reconsidering keeping species like this again, the losses I've experienced in some species have led me to believe that I may have the opposite to the newt/salamander version of green fingers. What particularly got to me was when I acquired 10 Tylototriton shanjing in 2001 and all save 1 died (some of you have seen the photos of the strange fly larva). Last year I acquired a number of freshly imported Tylototriton kweichowensis. These all died too, though not from quite the same problem as the shanjing. I really thought I was ready for the kweichowensis - that I could beat any problems they might encounter. These two incidents firmly convinced me never to acquire wild-caught animals again.

I know what I'm good with and I like those species so for the foreseeable future I will try to limit myself to those. I've thankfully grown out of NAS (Newt Acquisition Syndrome), mostly. I like the idea of concentration on what I still have - I'm very much looking forward to how my popei groups will do in adulthood *fingers crossed that they breed*.

Best wishes (and thanks again),

John



  Reply With Quote
Old 9th July 2004   #12 (permalink)
edward
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi John,
There are several possible scenarios assuming that the cause of death was due to an infection. The original animal could have shed enough pathogens to provide a sufficient number to overcome the immune system of the second animal (which then increased the number for the third).
A toxin (either from the newt or from the bacteria) could have stressed the animals making them stressed enough to be immunocompromised, if I think about it I can come up with other scenarios.

I recently lost three Paramesotritions in 48 hours in the same fashion while the other two quarantine tanks lost none.

Ed



  Reply With Quote
Old 20th July 2004   #13 (permalink)
sergé
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Dear John,

sorry to hear that. But it brings me back to the time (1997 or 1998) when my N. strauchii strauchii and my N. crocatus (both raised from juvenile to adult) died within a few weeks all after each other.
The only thing I changed was introducing a completely (as it looked) healthy N. strauchii that I got from a good friend of mine that was solitary. All animals were at the moment reproducing!
The animals were also aquatic raised and showed no interest in leaving the water. My N. kaiseri I have also don't show it, but I will force them to do so.
This dying hurts a lot, and makes you never ever to start with something like that again. Especially as the animals were healthy CB animals. If you buy wild caught you know that there is a big risk you loose them.
But last year I could again get CB animals from both species and I have started all over. Doing it more carefull, completely terrestrial (as I have seen habitats of Neurergus strauchii in the wild).
We learn by falling over, even people with much experience still have to face unbelievable losses. Let's hope we find out how to breed these Neurergus species more regularly. Because it is still not easy to keep and breed them.



  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd July 2013   #14 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
morg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 55
Posts: 661
Gallery Images: 1
Comments: 1
Rep: morg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

A very old thread here that I think would be interesting to resserect now that times have moved on, and a lot more people are keeping Neurergus species.

What have people found through the years since this thread? have people had simular losses keeping Neurergus aquatic?

Have people had losses keeping terrestrial?

Have some of you kept Neurergus completely aquatic for years and had no problems??



__________________
LOVE PUNK ROCK-HATE RACISM
HATE HOMOPHOBIA
MORG
www.punkradiocast.com/
morg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th July 2013   #15 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
morg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 55
Posts: 661
Gallery Images: 1
Comments: 1
Rep: morg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.orgmorg is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I will start and maybe others will also post with any experiences.
I kept N. strauchii strauchii, which I raised from eggs, and I think they were in their 4th or maybe 5th year.
These newts were offered a large land area for the first two years of their lives, but chose never to use it at all.

Land area was slowly removed untill all that remained was a large piece of floating cork bark, which was again never used.

All seemed to be going well, the newts were showing signs of being in breeding condition, were eating well etc, and then as with previous posts, started dying 1 by 1.
After a few days and with just 2 remaining, I removed to a terrestrial set up with small water bowl.
The newts spent almost all the time in water bowl, where three days later another died.

I then removed water bowl , leaving the remaining 1 live newt in a completelly terrestrial set up, damp moss at 1 end to completely dry at the other.
This was around 4 months ago, and this newt is still going strong.
To say I am gutted is an understatement.

A friend of mine has contacted me after having simular problems with Neurergus species, seemingly healthy newts dying 1 by 1 for no apparent reason.
So please post your experiences, good or bad and lets see if we can find a common ground for these deaths, is it in fact the keeping of Neurergus aquatic, even if they choose this way of life? or some other cause?



__________________
LOVE PUNK ROCK-HATE RACISM
HATE HOMOPHOBIA
MORG
www.punkradiocast.com/
morg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2013   #16 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Nationality:
Posts: 10
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Tony G Indy is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I have 2 n.kaiserii that are about 18 months old and have been in my care about 6 months. They are kept aquatic as the breeder encouraged me to do, but have always had a rock island to climb upon. The water temp is typically 68-69 degrees. They have always been extremely poor feeders. The favorite feed is hand fed whiteworms. They will occasionaly take thawed bloodworms, a small redworm piece, a handheld cricket.
They have grown some since I obtained them but fear they will shut down.

All feedback appreciated!



Tony G Indy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 6th July 2013   #17 (permalink)
Administrator
 
Jennewt's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 54
Posts: 12,378
Gallery Images: 97
Comments: 46
Rep: Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11Jennewt goes to 11
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I do seem to see a lot of complaints about unexplained deaths among Neurergus. More so than other genera.

I have a group of 3 N. strauchii that were moved from terrestrial to aquatic at about 1 year of age, and have been aquatic, continuously, for 9 years now. They are good feeders and have bred every year except one.

I don't think that aquatic life per se is responsible for poor health or death. There are cases like Morg's where people appear to have saved an animal by moving it terrestrial. In my case, I killed a Neurergus by moving it from aquatic to terrestrial too abruptly, so I would recommend doing this with caution.

I believe that aquatic life, together with some other factor, is responsible. I can think of lots of possibilities for the other factor(s): a pathogen, a nutritional deficiency, a water parameter... who knows?



__________________
Useful Links: Caresheets | Newt & Salamander FAQs | Axolotl FAQs |My website | Forum Rules.
Jennewt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2013   #18 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Nationality:
Posts: 59
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: markusA has given consistently excellent advice and informationmarkusA has given consistently excellent advice and informationmarkusA has given consistently excellent advice and informationmarkusA has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I keep N. kaiseri for more than 8 years. Only in early spring they are put in an aquatic setup for breeding. The terrestrial tank has got a 3cm layer of loam, some hiding stones and a big water bowl. Until now none of these newts died. They reproduce every year.

I had losses with my own kaiseri cb, and some N. crocatus and Triturus juveniles I kept in terrestrial setups with soil and pine bark as ground. If infected, the animals do not hide any more, move slow, are unable to feed in late stages and die. The loss seems quick, within 3-4 days from noticing the first symptoms. Brought back to an aquatic setup and treated with anti fungus drug from pet shop (or Levamisol as recommended by my vet) these ones not severely effected survive. Medication and keeping in renewed terrestrial setup let to death of all newts. There might be a positive effect from skin shedding the newts do when put into water as well.
I sent samples of fresh dead animals to a specialized lab and they found as reason a fungus called Hormodendrum. It is a common organism in our environment as on moss and bark the vet told me. So it must be poor hygiene in my setups.
Possibly there is a relation to the food in my case. To the terrestrial newts I feed crickets dusted with minerals. Sometimes I can see fungus on the feeding subtrate in the freshly bought cricket boxes, mainly from a company that is not frilling holes into the boxes of the very small crickets. It is hard to see the fungus in the beginning. And since I had the losses I check severely all boxes before feeding. Fed with already fungus infected crickets the newts might get fungus poison and the fungus as spores by contact and through the air.

My newt collection was checked for Chytrid, all samples negative.

As the adults do not show any signs of illness and I had no losses within them I think there are no viruses in my collection. The dissected cb animals did also not show any signs of virus infection.
I heard of rumours that viruses (Ranavirus) are responsible for losses of Neurergus in captive collections.



markusA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th July 2013   #19 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 48
Posts: 650
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: sergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.orgsergé is a mainstay of Caudata.org
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I keep most of my animals terrestrial for the larger part of the year. However, a group of Neurergus crocatus have been more or less aquatic since 4-5 years now and do not show any troubles. They breed every year. I agree with Jennifer that probably in an aquatic situation if a disease shows up, or an animal gets ill it can result in a loss of the total group, which you rarely see in a terrestrial set up.
I do not think chytrid is really affecting Neurergus, but Ranavirus can and there is also a Chlamydia discovered that does. We just know litle about diseases. That's also why I asked Frank Pasmans, who is a vetenarian specialist, to write a piece on it in our paper on Neurergus strauchii. You can find it here if you have not read it :-)

S. BOGAERTS, H. JANSSEN, J. MACKE, G. SCHULTSCHIK, K. ERNST, F. MAILLET, C. BORK, F. PASMANS & P. WISNIEWSKI, 2012. Conservation biology, husbandry and captive breeding of the endemic Anatolia newt, Neurergus strauchii Steindachner (1887) (Amphibia: Caudata: Salamandridae). Amphibian and Reptile Conservation 6(4):9-29(e53). redlist.arc.org - Neurergus Newts
http://www.redlist-arc.org/Article-P...3_high_res.pdf



sergé is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd July 2013   #20 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Nationality:
Posts: 63
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erik3333 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: The demise of my Neurergus kaiseri

I too keep my 4 crocatus aquatic. They have been so for over a year and although I have offered them big land parts but they have shown little interest for it. Sometimes they venture on land in the night (I can tell because of wet marks on the dry slab I use for land) but they never stay there. In my experience they have bigger tendency to go on land when their water warms up.

There is a big canister filter used for the tank which measures 80x40x40. The animals do not seem to mind a current. The aquarium is not lighted and the room it is in is pretty dark too. The set up is simple with rocks and a layer of gravel. I gave up bare bottom because I noticed the newts were constantly looking at themselves in the reflection.



erik3333 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
demise, kaiseri, neurergus


(View-All Members who have read this thread since 1st May 2017, 15:00 (Set) (Clear)

andrew_taricha, CBuckle, ferrisr, flintystoatface, horsefieldi, jimmies1974, JNewm89, John, shnabo, stanleyc, track43
LinkBack
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question: Neurergus kaiseri Mechanthrix Newt and Salamander Help 2 2nd May 2009 01:10
Neurergus kaiseri rick Wanted in the USA 2 2nd May 2008 01:24
Neurergus kaiseri ajc FS: European Union (including UK) 12 31st October 2007 15:15
Neurergus kaiseri alexandra Newt and Salamander Help 1 10th May 2005 05:28


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:22.