Neurergus derjugini

[anapsid]

Hello,
some news for the Neurergus enthusiasts.
A juvenile Neurergus derjugini.
For references see: Austrian Herpetological Society - Vienna; HERPETOZOA German

[Rodrigo]

Is N.derjugini in use? I had only ever heard of it as an old name for microspilotus.
It looks freakishly like an hybrid between N.kaiseri and N.strauchii!!
It is a fat, nice-looking juvenile, congrats.

[AJ]

Its beautiful!

[eljorgo]

Rodrigo, I guess derjurini stands for a 'subtype' of Neurergus crocatus in this case.
They are surely a spectacular 'specie' of caudate nonetheless... I'd like to see adults..specially the breeders of those. I've got a friend with derjurini but wanted to see the parents of those. And the orange blotching if ever present at all.

Cheers,

[Molch]

So is it a subspecies of N. crocatus then? Does anybody breed N. crocatus? One only ever hears of strauchii and kaiseri.

Either way, it's gorgeous. Gotta love the polka dots.

[Rodrigo]

A friend has been informing me (apparently he had done so before when the AG Urodela bulletin came out, but i have a fish memory, to his dismay) and apparently, there is much debate about wether N.dejurgini is a species on its own, a subespecies of N.microspilotus, or a subspecies of N.crocatus, so as you can see, Molch, it´s all crystal clear xD It seems that there is a lot of variation among the different populations of crocatus, microspilotus and strauchii, and that these are in need of a good genetic study. Like N.kaiseri, these have been traditionally difficult to study because of the sociopolitical situation of the areas. I bet there is much we don´t know about Neurergus...

As for N.crocatus, they were "relatively" common when first imported, but then their captive numbers steadily decreased and they almost disappeared from the hobby. Succesfull breedings were extremely rare. Luckily they have been bred recently a reduced number of times, so there´s hope for a better future. A good friend of mine is acquiring a group of 5 in a few months, when they are ready

[Molch]

Iguess they work it out eventually...if they can agree on anything :)

on a side note, as a biologist I sometimes get annoyed with the taxonomists - they are the bean counters in our field and sometimes it seems every one of them wants to describe a new species or subspecies, even if it's just re-naming one that's already out there. I'm still trying to work out why Mesotriton had to be renamed Ichtyosaura, for example. Oh well, I'm probably being unfair to the lot of them

[Rodrigo]

It definitely happens, Molch. There has always been a race and desire to name a species among biologists. A sad thing, since what matters is science, not an individual name, the way i see it.
However, i think a lot of good work is being done with the family Salamandridae. New names may seem to randomly pop up, but they are quite solid. I honestly think i agree with most current classifications. They make a lot of sense to me. There is quite a bit of work to be done with asiatic species as well as with Neurergus, but i´m confident it will make things clearer, rather than confusing, in the long run. I´m actually quite excited with the prospect of further revised taxonomies for these groups and the nice surprises they might bring.

As for Ichthyosaura and Mesotriton, it was a matter of priority. The name Mesotriton was proposed when the old Triturus were split (which in my opinion, was a godsend) but taxonomic rules dictate that the older correct name prevails, and in this case it was Ichthyosaura. It´s just that, really.

[Molch]

Originally Posted by Azhael

As for Ichthyosaura and Mesotriton, it was a matter of priority. The name Mesotriton was proposed when the old Triturus were split (which in my opinion, was a godsend) but taxonomic rules dictate that the older correct name prevails, and in this case it was Ichthyosaura. It´s just that, really.

oh I see - one of those. I must admit, I haven't followed the taxo wars that closely. All I know is, I'd never have the patience for it . I study ecology and behavior, hehe. From an ecology standpoint, in these lower vertebrate and even some mammals, the species concept is a fuzzy one anyways. But it is an important one for conservation laws etc....

[eljorgo]

I find It pathetic.. Even being a taxonomic rule I find the name Ichthyosaura extremely inappropriate for the being it self. Both the Latin parts mean Fish + Lizard= Fish-lizard.. Witch has no sense at all. Mesotriton indicated a newt (triton) of medium (meso) size. Something between the current Lissotirton and Triturus. The passage to such inappropriate lizard-o-fish being name is simply
Anyway I am an outsider so... Just have to eat and accept..

[Rodrigo]

Yeah, the concept of species is tricky, in general xD Specially with the new information in recent years about hybridisation, things have become complicated. Mind you, i don´t think it´s very relevant if a given animal is a certain species, subspecies, or whatever, as far as it´s uniqueness is recognized some way. The taxonomic level of its name is irrelevant so long as it has a name xD What´s important is that we know they exist as something special and unique and that we recognize that. That´s part of the reason why i find revisions in taxonomy fascinating, because they tend to bring to our attention "new" creatures, regardless of what name they are given. After all, each individual is free to suscribe to whatever taxonomic hypothesis they want. Some people still consider T.pygmaeus to be a subspecies of T.marmoratus, and it´s not a problem as long as we all know we are talking about an animal that is distinctive and unique by itself (species or subspecies, it´s all points of view...).

As you say, it´s important for conservation laws, awareness, etc..

[Molch]

Originally Posted by eljorgo

I find It pathetic.. Even being a taxonomic rule I find the name Ichthyosaura extremely inappropriate for the being it self. Both the Latin parts mean Fish + Lizard= Fish-lizard.. Witch has no sense at all. Mesotriton indicated a newt (triton) of medium (meso) size. Something between the current Lissotirton and Triturus. The passage to such inappropriate lizard-o-fish being name is simply

I kind of agree. The name Ichtyosaura is a bit silly. Besides, it was already taken, sort-of. To me, an Ichtyosaurus will always look like THIS.

of course, for a real ichtyosaurus I'd need a much bigger tank....

[eljorgo]

That is yes in fact the real Lizard fish! With no doubt! lol.
Yes and you could start breeding chickens, dogs, cats for a good amount of food supply LMAO

[Molch]

Originally Posted by eljorgo

That is yes in fact the real Lizard fish! With no doubt! lol.
Yes and you could start breeding chickens, dogs, cats for a good amount of food supply LMAO

hehe. Not to mention that I would be more famous than Jesus if I managed to breed an extinct dinosaur.....

umm..did we officially hijack this thread now?

[eljorgo]

Ooops, I guess we did so ...

[Ozherp]

Its great to see a juv Neurergus derjugini, is that your animal or someone elses?

Plus do you know who is keeping and breeding this species in captivity? This week I'm in Irasn and out in the field looking at N. crocatus and N.microspilatus in the wild.

Do you know the distribution of N.derjugini? as my understanding is they were only in Iraq, is this the case?

Thanks :)

[anapsid]

Neurergus derjugini was first described by Nesterov from two locations, one in Iraq, and one in nearby Iran. He also described Neurergus microspilotus as a subspecies of Neurergus derjugini from two locations in Iraq. Both species are pretty similar, the main differences are the number and the size of the yellow blotches on the body.
Neurergus derjugini is not a synonym of Neurergus crocatus. Both species are clearly distinguishable.
So it is very likely that Neurergus derjugini occurs in Iran at the border to Iraq as well.

[Ozherp]

That great to hear, do you know where abouts in Iran they are supposed to be? as I'm heading across to Western Iran with and group of Iranian herpetologists this week to look at Neuregus in the wild. We are looking at N microspilotus which is meant to be very abundant but N.crocatus is quite rare and hard to find in Iran.

Any additional information would be great. I do have a paper in german on the species but I cant translate it whilst travelling.

So if that picture your animal of someone elses? and are there many in capitivity?

Cheers
J

[anapsid]

This is a picture of an adult Neurergus derjugini from Iraq taken in the wild last year.
One implication of the similarity of the species Neurergus derjugini and N. microspilotus is: The correct name of Neurergus microspilotus is Neurergus derjugini microspilotus or
Neurergus derjugini deending on the species concept. Just as it was postulated by Nesterov about one hundred years ago as
Rhithrotriton derjugini microspilotus.

[Ozherp]

Thanks for the picture of the adult, I really appreciate that.

I'm actually with the guys in Iran who are working on conserving Neurergus in their country. They are doing all the distribution and populations of N.kaiseri and we are heading off to western Iran to see the other species and make notes. I can understand this is a public forum, but if you have any details on the localities for this species in Iran, I know the team here would appreciate it. You can either send the information to me or direct to them. I'm not a collector and my only interest is seeing them in situ.

I look forward to hearing from you soon.