Torosa or Granulosa? Male or Female?

[ecoreptiles]

I'm so sorry I have to ask this; I know there are articles and posts everywhere about it...
But I just can't seem to get it straight in my mind! Eyelids, teeth, bumps, oh my!!!

Can someone please tell me the easiest way to tell these species apart?
I need the simplest explanation possible, and probably photos, because I'm just not getting it.
I'm looking for that "Ah-ha!" moment where my neurons actually make the required connection!
I don't know why I can't figure this out on my own, but I thought I'd make it easy on myself and ask for help....

And while we're at it, how do the sexes differ externally? I'm not too good with that either.
Again, my sincere apologies if you always seem to be answering these two questions.

(I've been trying to include pictures of my two Taricha spp., but the site I use to upload photos is misbehaving right now... I'll try again later.)

[Kaysie]

Taricha torosa have light colored under-eye lids. T. granulosa have dark under-eye lids (brown eyeliner). T. torosa have an orange belly-to-brown back line that's really fuzzy (the line's not well defined), where as T. granulosa have a sharply defined line. The eyes of T. granulosa do not stick out from the body as much as those of T. torosa when viewed from the top.

Externally, the males have longer/bigger tails, and bigger back legs, and their skin takes on a smooth appearance during breeding season. But it's VERY hard to sex these guys outside of breeding season.

[ecoreptiles]

Here are my two Taricha spp... or should I say Taricha granulosa? Or is it too hard to tell from the photos?
Do you think they are too fat? I've tried putting them on a diet...
Could they be females full of eggs?

[ecoreptiles]

So now that I think I can tell the difference between Taricha spp...
Why does the June photo in the Caudata.org calendar look like T. torosa to me??!!!!
I guess I'm still confused...

[John Clare]

They look like grans to me.

[Kaysie]

I agree. Definite T. granulosa. The one on the bottom of the first pic is probably a boy (enlarged cloaca).

As for the calender, it could be T. torosa, but locality and breeding (how they lay eggs, singly or in clusters) is more indicative than the eyelids. That's just kind of an 'at a glance' thing.

[Blake Diehl]

The thing that i think most easily identifies granulosa is that the line between brown/orange clearly goes under the eye, so that the eyes are completely surrounded in brown, and the orange doesn't start until down by the mouth.

[Uwe]

"The thing that i think most easily identifies granulosa is that the line between brown/orange clearly goes under the eye, so that the eyes are completely surrounded in brown, and the orange doesn't start until down by the mouth."

This is not a valid criteria to differntiate the species!

As there is not real good, that means precise criteria, by looking at the newt, the differentiation of this species is not easly possible.

To be shure do the Unken-Reflex. This is definite and described in literature (Petranka)

Best Regards

Uwe

[Blake Diehl]

huh.... i guess i haven't seen enough of them then! heh... oops. :/

[spoons]

after our discussion the other day uwe ... i tried to harras my newts into the unken reflex but they just wont do it ... maybe i'm not scary enough :)
do you know of a painless easy way to get them to exhibit the behaviour ?

[Uwe]

as literature says (Petranka): tapping on the dorsum (back) serveral times will do it. I have seen it when I put mine out of hibernation and several times handling (not herassing) youngsters during cold season. It seems that at that time they are more likely to display at least rudimentaly this reflex.

Uwe

[Uwe]

so spoons, what is the result of the Unken-Reflex?

Uwe

[spoons]

uwe.....

two straight tails and one curled tail , just as i thought ! it was very hard to get them to show the unken reflex , although they don't appear to be too stressed and fed straight away afterwards

[Uwe]

2:1 for torosa.

So finally you knew what you have. I encourage all the users asking the question about what species to clarify by that means.

(Don´t forget to wash your hands, highly toxic! This is no joke)

See you

Uwe

[spoons]

Originally Posted by uwe

2:1 for torosa.

So finally you knew what you have. I encourage all the users asking the question about what species to clarify by that means.

(Don´t forget to wash your hands, highly toxic! This is no joke)

See you

Uwe

yes indeed ... it is better to know ... and yes listen to uwe , i had a small graze on my thumb that was ON FIRE for about 20 mins after doing this ! wash your hands !

[Uwe]

Maybe it should even be recommended to wear gloves if you do this.

Uwe