The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store


Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

This is a discussion on Surprise baby Plethodon jordani within the Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; Originally Posted by Msteffen Sure. Here is a better map which is more up to date. AmphibiaWeb - Plethodon jordani ...

Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) The largest, and one of the most diverse groups of salamanders, these salamanders have all evolved to breathe solely through their skin and are found almost exclusively in North America.

Like Tree38Likes


Reply

 

LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 27th October 2012   #21 (permalink)
Member
 
Wildebeestking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Nationality:
Posts: 132
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Wildebeestking is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Quote:
Originally Posted by Msteffen View Post
Sure. Here is a better map which is more up to date.

AmphibiaWeb - Plethodon jordani

I am not sure what that isolate in Georgia is all about. I have doubts that is really P. jordani. You can also look at other species which were considered to be jordani in the past, such as shermani or cheoah. There is also the Highton and Peabody 2000 paper published in The biology of Plethodontid Salamanders. This book is full of a number of manuscripts and is super expensive. It is also very hard to get those manuscripts outside of that book. I could also recommend some articles on the evolution and relationships of Plethodon, but they do not really address geographic distribution.

Also, while Berkleymapper apparently did get an upgrade recently, which is kind of cool, their collection is not always up to date with the taxonomy. For instance, this next map is the map for Eurycea multiplicata. This species is only found in the Ouachita mountains, however in this map, it has the species ranging into the Ozarks also. However, the species in the Ozarks are actually E. tynerensis. This is described in Bonett and Chippindale 2004. "Speciation, phylogeography and evolution of life history and morphology in plethodontid salamanders of the Eurycea multiplicata complex" Interesting enough, even if they did update the map to what I just said, in a few more years, species in the Ozarks and Ouachitas are going to be split more based on genetics. This work will come out of the lab I work in, Dr. Ron Bonett.

I don't mean to pick a fight with anyone, but if those are P. jordani, then they were collected from within the park. I am not going to report anyone or anything, I am just saying. I am very familiar with Plethodontid salamanders in that area of the country. Especially, Desmogs, which often share similar distributions with Plethodon. For example, Desmognathus imitator also is primarily with the park, except for one place I know of where they do not look like imitators and it is on private property. Taherman also probably knows that place well since I am pretty sure he has collected from the park himself. Also interesting, is the specimens he collected may represent distinct species. He should really publish his thesis.

Now if you want me to comment on Plethodontid breeding, I will.

Does anyone ever have any issues with little white mites crawling on their Plethodontid eggs?

Mike
Fascinating, There's so many different types of plethodontids. Too bad they aren't very common in captivity.



__________________
A. maculatum A. laterale T. marmoratus N. Viridescens P. Cinereus
Wildebeestking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012   #22 (permalink)
Caudata.org Donor
 
taherman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 362
Gallery Images: 1
Comments: 1
Rep: taherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgtaherman is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Quote:
Originally Posted by Msteffen View Post
Sure. Here is a better map which is more up to date.

AmphibiaWeb - Plethodon jordani

I am not sure what that isolate in Georgia is all about. I have doubts that is really P. jordani.
Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):

http://igsaceeswb00.er.usgs.gov:8080/mapserver/naa/

Quote:
There is also the Highton and Peabody 2000 paper published in The biology of Plethodontid Salamanders.
I have a paper copy of the book, but not digital. I'm pretty sure the attached map from another of Highton's papers (Highton, R. 1995. Speciation in eastern North American salamanders of the genus Plethodon. Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics 26:579–600.) utilizes the same data set. You can clearly see the red cheeked form's restricted distribution.

Quote:
I don't mean to pick a fight with anyone, but if those are P. jordani, then they were collected from within the park.
Exactly. And unless you have a scientific collection permit associated with them, they are not legal. There is no way anyone got a permit to collect from the park for the pet trade.

Quote:
Taherman also probably knows that place well since I am pretty sure he has collected from the park himself. Also interesting, is the specimens he collected may represent distinct species. He should really publish his thesis.
Yes I have (with permits), and yes I should...working on it. Just have a lot on my plate at the moment :P

Quote:
Does anyone ever have any issues with little white mites crawling on their Plethodontid eggs?
Never seen that. Often battle fungus though. Terrestrial eggs are not easy!

Tim
Attached Images
 



taherman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012   #23 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 893
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 8
Rep: FrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Beamer, B.A., & M.J. Lannoo, 2005. Plethodon jordani Blatchley, 1901. P816-818 IN M.J. Lannoo, ed., Amphibian Declines. University of California Press, Berkeley and Los Angeles.

This article presents a map and introductory comments which describe a southern disjunct population in Rabun County [the map includes Towns as well]. Later in the same article, the range is described as to be entirely within GSMNP, without mention of Georgia.

Amphibians and Reptiles of Georgia and Salamanders of the Southeast both indicate P.shermani in Towns county and P.metcalfi in Rabun county. Articles in Amphibian Declines indicate the same for P.metcalfi, but not P.shermani (which is otherwise marginal and possibly hybrid within Towns county).

Plethodon jordani rabunensis was described from Rabun Bald, Rabun county, Georgia, and is now considered a synonym of Plethodon metcalfi. This may be the source of confusion - somewhere along the line, someone assumed P.j.rabunensis to be "P.jordani", when it is now a different species.

HOWEVER...

Despite the first article above stating that there is no evidence of range change in Plethodon jordani, there is actually significant evidence of large range changes in this species complex, with genetic markers from several species being found 40-100 km away from their current range [different mountains] in members of species which are not close relatives. At lower elevations, there is also widespread hybridization between multiple species, which renders species assignment impossible in many cases. I don't know if hybrid animals which look like P.jordani occur outside GSMNP.

http://life.bio.sunysb.edu/ee/wiensl...arson-2005.pdf
D. W. WEISROCK, K . H. KOZAK and A. LARSON, 2005. Phylogeographic analysis of mitochondrial gene flow and introgression in the salamander, Plethodon shermani. Molecular Ecology (2005) 14:1457–1472.

Regardless of the origin, it's great to see some babies! Here's hoping my P.montanus can do the same!



FrogEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012   #24 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Neotenic_Jaymes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 970
Gallery Images: 46
Comments: 2
Rep: Neotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

[QUOTE=taherman;351253]Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):

So which ones are the good range maps and which ones are the disqualified ones? I assume only the ones Taherman and Msteffen provide are good. They are well informed/sourced people, so I guess any of the ones I dig up aren't qualified and should be straight dismissed.

Salamanders in complex with P. jordani found outside the GSMNP have been found with red cheeks, so even me calling my group/trio Plethodon jordani could be in question. Not all of the individuals I have even have truly red cheeks and a P. shermani came with the group collected from the same site. I can provide pics of the P. shermani of course.

There is no way anyone got a permit to collect from the park for the pet trade.

I didn't buy these. AND I DIDN"T collect them. I didn't receive them from the pet trade. Me having them may be not be legit but thats not truly certain. With this much feed back on Plethodon jordani I don't even desire anymore individuals or even pursue. I will admire the ones I do have. Wholesalers/pet shops/ect are pet trade not me having them.

No more PDF's or range maps and legalities. If so post a new thread for those topics. If anyone wants to talk about it face to face (so nothing gets mistranslated/or if I have to translate something) I'd be glad to. I will be in Toledo OH in a few weeks visitng. The topic of this thread is the breeding of Plethodon jordani.



__________________
Guns don't Kill people LAZERS do!
Neotenic_Jaymes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012   #25 (permalink)
Member
 
Wildebeestking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Nationality:
Posts: 132
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Wildebeestking is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Regardless of how they are collected (Which it sounds like he was unaware of their exact location of collection). I think its wonderful that he managed to breed them in captivity. You don't see plethodontids being bred all the time, especially such rare ones. Congrats Jaymes and hopefully you continue to have such good luck with all your caudates.



__________________
A. maculatum A. laterale T. marmoratus N. Viridescens P. Cinereus
Wildebeestking is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th October 2012   #26 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 893
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 8
Rep: FrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgFrogEyes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neotenic_Jaymes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by taherman View Post
Those maps have some issues too. The Rabun county, GA locale is actually a red-legged P. shermani population that somehow got mixed into the jordani map. They have updated some of the maps and they can be seen here, along with the other former "jordani" species (shermani, montanus, metcalfi, etc.):
So which ones are the good range maps and which ones are the disqualified ones? I assume only the ones Taherman and Msteffen provide are good. They are well informed/sourced people, so I guess any of the ones I dig up aren't qualified and should be straight dismissed.

Salamanders in complex with P. jordani found outside the GSMNP have been found with red cheeks, so even me calling my group/trio Plethodon jordani could be in question. Not all of the individuals I have even have truly red cheeks and a P. shermani came with the group collected from the same site. I can provide pics of the P. shermani of course.
Older range maps will include P.cheoah, P.amplus, P.meridianus, P.montanus, P.metcalfi, P.shermani, and P.jordani as a single species with a large range. Even older maps which recognize subspecies would probably map P.jordani jordani to include what are now P.jordani and P.cheoah. The most recent maps obviously illustrate each of seven species with much more restricted ranges. That said, Only one recent map includes Georgia in the range of P.jordani. There are three reasons to reject that map: 1) it doesn't state a source for that part of the range, 2) the same article contradicts itself later by stating that P.jordani only occurs in GSMNP, and 3) all other current maps and papers do not include Georgia in the distribution.

P.jordani and P.cheoah overlap, and the latter may have partially red legs and sometimes red cheeks. Thus P.cheoah might be confused with both P.shermani and P.jordani. P.shermani appears to overlap both P.cheoah and P.jordani, to some degree, but that's not entirely clear to me yet. P.cheoah itself does not appear to hybridize.

The PhD thesis (2009) of Matthew Chatfield focused on hybrids in the Balsam Mountains. This included hybrids of P.jordani and P.metcalfi, with red-cheeked hybrids occuring at relatively low altitudes in some cases. While Balsam Mountain is well within GSMNP, Mt Sterling is at the northern edge, where he found evidence of downhill range expansion of P.jordani, possibly by way of male P.jordani interbreeding with females of P.teyahalee. While I have long considered mtDNA to be non-evolutionary in many respects, it has been suggested that this might not be the case: Since mitochondria are the energy factories of the cell, some mitochondrial lines might be better able to function in different climate [temperature] conditions than others. A species with high altitude mitochondria might be unable to invade downslope, but all of its unique features could possibly move into warmer climates simply by obtaining mitochondria of a more heat-tolerant female. There could well be some low altitude P.jordani on the northeastern edge of GSMNP. While the animals in that area have a hybrid ancestry, they have all the traits of P.jordani except mtDNA.

I have often wondered about your previous avatar and whether it might be P.cheoah. If you can confirm the original locality for yourself, it could go a long ways towards confirming excatly what you have.



FrogEyes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th October 2012   #27 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
Neotenic_Jaymes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 970
Gallery Images: 46
Comments: 2
Rep: Neotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgNeotenic_Jaymes is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

I have often wondered about your previous avatar and whether it might be P.cheoah. If you can confirm the original locality for yourself, it could go a long ways towards confirming excatly what you have.[/QUOTE]

Thanks Andrew I'm working on that. Still haven't gotten a response.



__________________
Guns don't Kill people LAZERS do!
Neotenic_Jaymes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd November 2012   #28 (permalink)
Prolific Member
 
rust's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 798
Gallery Images: 44
Comments: 5
Rep: rust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.orgrust is a well respected, valued and knowledgeable member of Caudata.org
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

They are found outside the park at lower elevations, I have personally found them. It was along the boarders though.



__________________
RUSS

War is Peace
rust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2012   #29 (permalink)
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Nationality:
Posts: 26
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Todd Pierson has given good advice and informationTodd Pierson has given good advice and information
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Quote:
Originally Posted by rust View Post
They are found outside the park at lower elevations, I have personally found them. It was along the boarders though.
Do you have any photos?



Todd Pierson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2012   #30 (permalink)
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 35
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Vern5384 is an unknown quantity at this point
Default Re: Surprise baby Plethodon jordani

Part of the range does extend slightly outside the park's boundaries onto the higher elevations on the Qualla Cherokee Indian Reservation in NC. As far as I know, a tribal permit would be required to legally collect them here, as well, but I'm not certain. Most likely came from GSMNP, however. I'm certainly not nutting up over it or anything like that, but do be careful what you post and say on forums like this because you never know who's looking.



Vern5384 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

LinkBack
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
A little surprise garrison Photo & Video Gallery 2 28th September 2006 22:00
Ceeping Plethodon jordani rené Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) 5 14th January 2006 17:34
A surprise!! paris Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) 13 21st November 2005 01:33
"Little" surprise for me. joseph General Discussion & News from Members 9 14th September 2004 02:48
Yonahlossee, welleri, Red cheeked Plethodon jordani ... henk Plethodontids and Lungless Salamanders (Bolitoglossa, Eurycea, Plethodon, etc.) 4 15th April 2003 13:16


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:37.