Possible colonic bloat issues in P. waltl (photos and x-ray)

[Christina S. Miller]

I'm having some weird bloating issues in two of my three CB 2011 (or so the shop claimed) P. waltl.

Housing: 10 gallon aquarium, ~10-15 cm of tap water treated with chlorine/chloramine/heavy metal binder. A few medium-sized rocks and lots of live java moss placed on one end for hiding, feeding is done in the half with no plants. No substrate. No filter. Water temp. is taken with a digital probe thermometre, fluctuates between 20-22 C.

Maintenance: 1/2 to 2/3 water change every 7-10 days. I would remove uneaten food within the day, but they tend to finish everything quickly.

Diet: Fed 2-3 times/week, alternates between live red wiggler earthworms from our vermicomposter, f/t bloodworms and f/t mosquito larvae. I have other groups of newts (Paramesotriton hongkongiensis, P. chinensis, Cynops orientalis) on the same food rotation and only my Pleurodeles have any bloating issues.

The bloating issues started on October 13th. I noticed two of the three newts having difficulty reaching the bottom of the aquarium, as if the caudal part of their coelom was "inflated" and they were fighting against the buoyant force. They did not appear obviously bloated from the outside with inspection.



Water quality was not remarkable: pH 7.5, NO2 0 ppm, NO3 20 ppm, GH 120 ppm, KH 180 ppm. The only potential issue here is that our water is very hard in this municipality, I'm currently checking out some softening options for the sake of the amphibians and my tropical fish.

I brought them into work the same day for x-rays (I am a veterinary nurse/technician) to determine what cavity was bloated:


The one on top in this film is the only "normal" newt, although he obviously has a small amount of gas in his lower bowels. The guy on the lower left has some conspicuously intestinal-looking air contrast, but that larger "bubble" concerns me. It's been a while since I've done a caudate dissection/necropsy, I'm not sure if the colon is so elastic to be distorted so much. On the flipside, if the gas were coelomic in origin, I would expect the gas accumulation to be throughout the coelom, not sectioned off to the caudal portion. The newt on the lower right has more "normal" gassy transparencies.

One more rad:


Considering the above, I figured that they may just be constipated, and some lower GI gas was causing the problem. I fed them a small meal of f/t bloodworms to see if that would improve their GI motility. Low and behold, within another day or two they were back to normal. I continued with their regular feeding and water maintenance schedule.

Now, about a week and a half later, two of them are bloated again (I am suspecting that they are the same two individuals as before).

The bloating seems to be more of an annoyance to the newts than anything, they are not acting sick. Great appetites, they will swim with some effort to reach food at the bottom of the aquarium. When they want to hide, they wedge themselves under the edges of their rocks. I occasionally see them swim frantically to get to the bottom, give up for a minute or two, then mosey on to the sheltered side of the tank.

I tempted to bring in my other newts for some "control" x-rays to compare everyone. I briefly considered doing a fine needle aspirate to give them some relief from the bloating.

Has anyone had this problem, or some ideas for the cause?

[Ed]

Have you noticed if the bloating follows a specific food or is it occuring regardless of the food source?

Ed

[Donia]

It's brilliant you have the opportunity to delve deeper into this bloat problem. I had a P. waltl with bloat some time ago, but the vet I use didn't have a clue what was wrong, and to be honest was utterly useless - it was the first (and last) time I took amphibians in, and I don't think they had any experience with them. They put her on antibiotics, but eventually I just had to put her down, as I could see stretch marks on her skin, she was that bad. All the others I have are fine - 3 of the 5 are related to her, I believe.

Sorry I can't be of any more help. But please keep us updated, as I would love to hear the outcome of your investigations!

[Donia]

Hi again! Sorry for my ignorance, but what does the f/t stand for in terms of bloodworms and mosquito larvae?

[Christina S. Miller]

f/t = frozen/thawed :)

We're a canine/feline practice so it's understandable that my vets aren't on the case :) They're all wonderful clinicians regardless (there's a reason I've been there so long), and good to bounce ideas off of! I've yet to find a really competent local herp vet that I don't one-up on husbandry and/or physiology every visit.

The bloat doesn't seem to occur after any particular meal. The first incident was a few days after a live nightcrawler feeding, then remedied with a small meal of f/t bloodworms. The second bloat was after a meal of f/t mosquito larvae.

I'm wondering if it's the size of the meals that get them to bloat. There are *never* leftovers when I feed them. I think I'm going to try smaller meals, more often, to see if it reoccurs.

[Ed]

There are usually a couple of different things that can play into bloating in an amphibian (not an all inclusive list), the first is that the animal has consumed enough that it can't easily digest all of the food, which allows for carbohydrates to be fermented in the gut resulting in the production of gas. This issue can be compounded if the temperature is low enough that it reduces the rate of digestion in the newt. In this case reducing the amount of food fed or increasing the temperature several degrees can make a big difference. The second main thing can be due to reduced gut motility from being fed foods that are low in "fiber" (for example, chitin can act as a fiber in the gut of insectivores) or aren't active enough to help pass the gas that occurs.

Just some thoughts,

Ed .

[Christina S. Miller]

Thanks for the input, Ed. I have a feeling that it's related to the size of their meals. At 22C, I don't want to increase their water temps. any higher (I believe I'm already on the high end of their preferred temperature range).

[Bruce Maclean]

Hi,

A couple of immediate further investigations spring to mind which might be useful:

Faecal examination (of both normal, bloated (whilst bloated) and bloated (whilst not bloated) newts) would certainly be the first choice; microscopy for flora balance and parasites mainly, although full microbiology obviously might produce further information. Some gut flora imbalances could well present like that. Fresh smears should also be examined, as finding protozoa (especially flagellates) can be near impossible once they've died and stopped moving.

Failing that, a contrast study (barium meal) comparing transit times in affected and unaffected newts might be useful

Blood sample might also be useful, although in my experience gut issues often don't affect the blood picture.

In terms of treatment, I would suggest it might be worth trying probiotics before any other medication, again thinking in terms of possible abnormal gut flora. Some other drugs might be useful in the absence of further useful diagnostics, such as metronidazole - you could discuss these with your vet. I personally would be quite reluctant to start sticking needles in for relief unless they are really distressed - always the chance of leakage and resultant coelomitis and/or adhesions.

Hope this helps, I would be very interested to hear any further findings.

Bruce.

Originally Posted by Herptiles

f/t = frozen/thawed :)

We're a canine/feline practice so it's understandable that my vets aren't on the case :) They're all wonderful clinicians regardless (there's a reason I've been there so long), and good to bounce ideas off of! I've yet to find a really competent local herp vet that I don't one-up on husbandry and/or physiology every visit.

The bloat doesn't seem to occur after any particular meal. The first incident was a few days after a live nightcrawler feeding, then remedied with a small meal of f/t bloodworms. The second bloat was after a meal of f/t mosquito larvae.

I'm wondering if it's the size of the meals that get them to bloat. There are *never* leftovers when I feed them. I think I'm going to try smaller meals, more often, to see if it reoccurs.

[Christina S. Miller]

Hi Bruce,

Thank you so much for the input, and I apologize for my ridiculously late response (apparently I disabled e-mail notifications).

I'll definitely try to snag a fresh fecal sample for examination. For culture, would you do just an aerobic C&S? We'll start with the fecal, for sure.

For probiotics, what's your preferred choice for amphibians? I've used Bene-Bac (power, not gel) before with other herps, with varying degrees of success.

Thank you again for the advice, and happy holidays :)

Cheers,
Christina

[Bruce Maclean]

Hi Christina,

The culture would be ideally full - anaerobes (e.g. clostridial overgrowth) could be an issue. Ideally you could sample all three newts, so the apparently normal one would give you something to compare to (I'm not aware of any study on normal faecal microflora in P waltl : ).

Not sure what probiotics you have available there - a better choice than here in the UK I suspect! Our products are limited to one specific organism in a product (usually a Lactobacillus or Enterococcus species) - I've used Avipro plus (from Vetark products) or lacto B9 (Genitrix). If you can get a product with one more than one microorganism, I'd probably go for that.

In theory you could syringe a suspension of faeces from a healthy P waltl, on the grounds that that would be the most natural probiotic. With an unknown animal that would of course carry significant risks, but if you have one of the three (that are in full contact anyway) that seems consistently normal it might be worth trying, if the problem is bad and/or persistent enough.

Any further findings?

Best wishes,

Bruce.

Originally Posted by Herptiles

Hi Bruce,

Thank you so much for the input, and I apologize for my ridiculously late response (apparently I disabled e-mail notifications).

I'll definitely try to snag a fresh fecal sample for examination. For culture, would you do just an aerobic C&S? We'll start with the fecal, for sure.

For probiotics, what's your preferred choice for amphibians? I've used Bene-Bac (power, not gel) before with other herps, with varying degrees of success.

Thank you again for the advice, and happy holidays :)

Cheers,
Christina

[Christina S. Miller]

Hi Bruce,

I haven't had any luck getting a fecal sample from these guys. I've tried isolating them in a smaller, simpler enclosure for several days at a time post-feeding (this has worked great for other newts), but they just aren't pooping for me. I've found stool in their larger aquarium (of questionable age upon discovery) but I don't like taking samples when I don't know how long they've been in the environment. I'm more suspicious that they're having motility issues now, as I typically would expect a poop within 2-3 days of a meal!

In any case, their bloating seems to happen less frequently lately. I have no idea why.

The major brand of reptile/bird probiotic we have in Quebec is Bene-Bac; there are probably more available elsewhere but with our language labelling laws in this province you'd be surprised at how many manufacturers will skip us! Contents from our supplier's website: Guaranteed total live (viable) Lactic Acid Product Bacteria: 20 million Colony Forming Units (CFU) per gram (Bifidobacterium bifidum, Lactobacillus fermentum, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, Enterococcus Faecium, Lactobacillus plantarum, Pediococcus acidilaclicii).

Not too shabby as it contains a nice variety, but their instructions are based only on bird dosages and they say to use the same guidelines for reptiles. This makes me kind of suspicious of its efficacy in herps, I don't know if the successes I've seen were a result of the probiotic or just getting over things themselves.

[Christina S. Miller]

I just realized that I never followed up on this case. I did a few fecal wet mounts, not seeing anything particularly interesting, then the issue seemed to resolve itself.

All three newts are doing very well, I haven't seen any bloatiness since November.

Thank you again for all your help with this.

[Bruce Maclean]

Originally Posted by Herptiles

I just realized that I never followed up on this case. I did a few fecal wet mounts, not seeing anything particularly interesting, then the issue seemed to resolve itself.

All three newts are doing very well, I haven't seen any bloatiness since November.

Thank you again for all your help with this.

Hi Christina,

Thanks for the update. Would be interested if any further info at any point if you find anything out!

Cheers,

Bruce.

[Christina S. Miller]

Just a quick update: No further incidences of bloating, the only thing that has changed with their husbandry long-term is that they are not getting anymore vermicomposter worms (had a drying-out disaster during a rough work week and lost my colony in February or March).

Correlation of course does not imply causation, but it's a thought.

[andrizay]

i have been breeding P.waltl for a while now and my animals ussually get the bloat-symptons when they being fed with more Tubifex than bloodworms,earthworms etc.

[Christina S. Miller]

Hey, thanks for the input. I only recently started adding frozen/thawed Tubifex to their diet (in addition to bloodworms and white mosquito larvae). So far there are no issues.

Have you ever used live blackworms for your P. waltl? I recently found out that a local pet store has live ones from time to time.