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After 9 months

This is a discussion on After 9 months within the Warty Newts (Paramesotriton & Laotriton) & Paddletail Newts (Pachytriton forums, part of the Species, Genus & Family Discussions category; It took 9 months... the same as a child would take to get born. To me its a truly pleasing ...

Warty Newts (Paramesotriton & Laotriton) & Paddletail Newts (Pachytriton Often sold incorrectly as Japanese fire-bellied newts, these territorial newts are distinct from other genera and very interesting in their own right.

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Old 28th November 2010   #1 (permalink)
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Default After 9 months

It took 9 months... the same as a child would take to get born.
To me its a truly pleasing moment to be watching the metamorphosis of a never ever breed before specie, Paramesotriton cf. guangxiensis [vietman]. I never tough that larval period in Pleurodelinae salamandrids could get so extended...Triturus, Mesotriton, Lissotriton, Taricha, Notopthalmus, Cynops, Tylototriton... they all take 3-6months approx. to morph. Ive had knowledge of other Paramesotriton morphing within 3-4months old (Hongkongs). Its a mystery to me why these took so long to morph. And I only have one folk in land witch means it can be even more but they all seem pretty ready to jump.

Anyway its a truly awesome moment for me that I wanted to share with others.
The newt-ling is 34mm in total length, the head 6mm, finger length of 1mm.
Its yet very primordial looking with larval aspect (big head width, even bigger than body (belly width)). Belly patterns are nothing to do with adults. I guess all Paramesotriton morphs have this belly pattern? And thus, its the most dead thing ive seen, I mean I never saw this thing moving even a limb. Only when I check it from time to time I know he walks cause he moves from position.

Anyway, here go some pics,

Click the image to open in full size.

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Cheers,
Jorge
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Old 28th November 2010   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Congratulations Jorge! Good luck rearing them up.
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Old 28th November 2010   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Hi Jorge,
Congrats! Nice little morph!
I recognize the "dead behaviour". The hongkongensis did the same. It's a bit scary but after a few weeks when they started eating they came "alive". I fed the larvae many times so they have enough strenght for morphing.
Did you get my pm by the way?

Monique
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Old 28th November 2010   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Lovely to see Paramesotriton breeding, as always. This genus just doesnt get bred enough!

Im a bit confused about the species, though. You say they are P.cf. guanxiensis which means you are not sure of the species, but if they come from Vietnam, then they should be deloustali, right? As far as i can tell, guanxiensis is unique to the Guangxi area, in China.
Both species are VERY similar but if the locality data is reliable, the animals should be deloustali, in which case they have been bred before (not that breeding them isnt rare and something to be excited about).
Im not that familiar with the genus Paramesotriton so i may be wrong, but the localities dont match.

Anyway, the little morph looks lovely!! I like they huge head xD. I hope its not a nightmare to raise, these guys have a a fearsome reputation xD Such tiny morphs and so much growing to do.....
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Last edited by Azhael; 28th November 2010 at 17:54.
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Old 28th November 2010   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Congratulations, Jorge! The best possible outcome of the hobby is seeing your 'kids' grow up... LOL! Great job!
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Old 28th November 2010   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Heeei!!! Good news! Like Azhael say, Paramesotriton, is rarely breed, so even if the species that you have was breed before, you may be dam proud Jorje!
Good luck rearing the young. And keep us post with the progress
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Old 29th November 2010   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Lovely juvenile - an amazingly long larval period. Both batches of P. aff. fuzhongensis that I have reared had larval periods much more similar to other similar genera. Your animals still have very smooth skin...be careful that they don't dessicate. Myt fuzhongensis developed rough, hydrophobic skins before they left the water properly (and then NOTHING could persuade them back in for 3 years!).

With respect to the locality, P. guangxiensis was described (and is officially only known from) Paiyang shan, Ningming County in Guangxi Province. This locality is close-ish (very roughly 80km) from the Vietnam border. Its likely that this species is more widespread than a single locality. The parents of these larvae (Paramesotriton cf. guangxiensis - I assume they are the parents) do not look like deloustali, although similar enough to be the closely related guangxiensis....I've never seen a good picture of something that is DEFINITELY guangxiensis (i.e. from the type locality)....the descriptive paper has a grainy black-and-white dorsal shot, I seem to remember, and the description itself is rather poor (it could apply to most Paramesotriton species).

Good luck raising them - have they fed yet? I found with P. fuzhongensis that keeping them on leaf litter with stacks of cork-bark and moss, to allow them to regulate moisture levels, worked well. They took a while to feed in front of me. I would also recommend that you put a small piece of roof tile or brick in, which the newts will use to help shed. Skin infections due to shedding failure can be quite common without something rough to help peel the skin off.

Good luck

Chris
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Old 29th November 2010   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Hey All. Want to thank everybody for the compliments.


Quote:
Hi Jorge,
Congrats! Nice little morph!
I recognize the "dead behaviour". The hongkongensis did the same. It's a bit scary but after a few weeks when they started eating they came "alive". I fed the larvae many times so they have enough strength for morphing.
Did you get my pm by the way?

Monique
Monique, thanks for the tip, I will get collembola soon for them then lets see if the come more lively. I do feed also my larvae very regularly. This fella escaped metamorphosis nicely. been haft a week and he gets better looking every day as gills get more invisible and skin more rough and less shiny.
I did get your PM. Sorry didn't reply. Thank you very much for the help!

Quote:
Lovely to see Paramesotriton breeding, as always. This genus just doesnt get bred enough!

Im a bit confused about the species, though. You say they are P.cf. guanxiensis which means you are not sure of the species, but if they come from Vietnam, then they should be deloustali, right? As far as i can tell, guanxiensis is unique to the Guangxi area, in China.
Both species are VERY similar but if the locality data is reliable, the animals should be deloustali, in which case they have been bred before (not that breeding them isnt rare and something to be excited about).
Im not that familiar with the genus Paramesotriton so i may be wrong, but the localities dont match.

Anyway, the little morph looks lovely!! I like they huge head xD. I hope its not a nightmare to raise, these guys have a a fearsome reputation xD Such tiny morphs and so much growing to do.....
Rodrigo,youre right. This genus just as pachytriton too need more investment from advanced keepers/breeders. they are yet very little known compared to most genus we keep like cynops, triturus etc...

About the specie, they were caught by a friend of mine while he was in a investigation lead by a zoo. I was lucky enough to get them as a gift last year. There are more from same study but those are either in the zoo or were frozen to death for latter studies.
they were indeed caught in mountain streams exactly in the frontier between the two countries, and they surely have some similarities with deloustals but they are NOT deloustali like Chris said and well. The frozen individuals had an DNA test that matched with P.guagxiensis actually, but they were not my animals and I did not see the real results with my own eyes... I cant be sure but... I rather vote for guangxiensis or some sort of hybrid. But never as deloustali it self...


Quote:

Heeei!!! Good news! Like Azhael say, Paramesotriton, is rarely breed, so even if the species that you have was breed before, you may be dam proud Jorje!
Good luck rearing the young. And keep us post with the progress
Tudor, thank you. I am very proud, since i got first eggs soon this year.
But metamorphosis is also a very special moment indeed.
I plan to post the progress here yes.


Quote:
Lovely juvenile - an amazingly long larval period. Both batches of P. aff. fuzhongensis that I have reared had larval periods much more similar to other similar genera. Your animals still have very smooth skin...be careful that they don't dessicate. Myt fuzhongensis developed rough, hydrophobic skins before they left the water properly (and then NOTHING could persuade them back in for 3 years!).

With respect to the locality, P. guangxiensis was described (and is officially only known from) Paiyang shan, Ningming County in Guangxi Province. This locality is close-ish (very roughly 80km) from the Vietnam border. Its likely that this species is more widespread than a single locality. The parents of these larvae (Paramesotriton cf. guangxiensis - I assume they are the parents) do not look like deloustali, although similar enough to be the closely related guangxiensis....I've never seen a good picture of something that is DEFINITELY guangxiensis (i.e. from the type locality)....the descriptive paper has a grainy black-and-white dorsal shot, I seem to remember, and the description itself is rather poor (it could apply to most Paramesotriton species).

Good luck raising them - have they fed yet? I found with P. fuzhongensis that keeping them on leaf litter with stacks of cork-bark and moss, to allow them to regulate moisture levels, worked well. They took a while to feed in front of me. I would also recommend that you put a small piece of roof tile or brick in, which the newts will use to help shed. Skin infections due to shedding failure can be quite common without something rough to help peel the skin off.

Good luck

Chris
Chris, thank a lot for your reply. In that pic he was a fresh morph with "many" gills yet. First climb on land. He is much more dry right now, I mean he is not dried but With a not shiny skin and gaining more rough skin, not humid as in the pic.
And Gills are almost not visible. I guess hes walking to success. Now its just wait for him to start feeding :)
Yes those are the parents. No wait, the father is in those pics. But that is not the mother. I have two females. One of them laid eggs for me and she's not pictured. The pictured female is another that didn't laid the eggs.
Thanks for the tile advice

Cheers,

Jorge
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Old 3rd December 2010   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Hey Here are some updates in the fella. As you can see its doest have the same wet appearance like it had before.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

It haven't feed yet.. Ill receive some collembola soon and offer him some :)

Cheers,
Jorge
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Old 7th December 2010   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Nice little newt! His skin is already changing.
Jorge i used the collembola to keep the tank clean. The little juveniles ate tubifex.
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Old 7th December 2010   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Congratulations with this success!! By the way, very nice pictures.
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Old 7th December 2010   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Quote:
Nice little newt! His skin is already changing.
Jorge i used the collembola to keep the tank clean. The little juveniles ate tubifex.
thanks!He keeps getting more and more lively. Open eyes, breathing with no problem (gular fold up and down fast) and caught him changing skin for first time! sucessfully.
Really encanting dude. I can wait mine are 10cm!

Damn that why all the collembola are still there :S
I dont have acess to any tubifex unfortunatly.

Quote:
Congratulations with this success!! By the way, very nice pictures.
Thanks Martin! All the best,


Jorge
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Old 7th December 2010   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Quote:
Originally Posted by eljorgo View Post
thanks!He keeps getting more and more lively. Open eyes, breathing with no problem (gular fold up and down fast) and caught him changing skin for first time! sucessfully.
Really encanting dude. I can wait mine are 10cm!

Damn that why all the collembola are still there :S
I dont have acess to any tubifex unfortunatly.



Thanks Martin! All the best,


Jorge
Very nice sal Jorge! You could try to give larva of fruitflies. Most of the time they are well eaten... Hope he eat soon!
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Old 8th December 2010   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

That was my first Idea. But i dont know if it really will, and If it does its only one animal! A cultivar of drosophylas rounds the 3euro for 200flys/maggots! Too much for small guy.
Thanks for the sugestion.
Ill get a bunch of grindals free from the colleombola breeder. Lets see how he reacts to their presence.

Cheers,
Jorge
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Old 8th December 2010   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

My P. fuzhongensis morphs very rarely fed in front of me, and only when they were older at that. I found they did well in a setup with lots of bark and moss etc and plenty of small food items added to the tank, includoing fruitflies, springtails, hatchling crickets, isopods and 'garden sweepings'. The person who took them over from me did very well using similar setups until they re-entered the water.

If it is large enough, newly hatched waxworms or lesser waxworms will work, too.

C
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Old 28th December 2010   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

I was just looking at some pictures of Arnaud Jamin (this guy has some seriously lovely creatures) and it seems he beat you to breeding this species. Quite succesfully too (then again he seems to have a knack for breeding and lots of prime outdoor space -im blinded by envy-). I just found out, which is not surprising given the good ole french tradition of being seceretive about their success in the hobby xD. This is great news since two separate breedings from unrelated WC parents provide much better variation for future breedings with CB stock. Definitely something to be happy about for this rare species.
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Last edited by Azhael; 28th December 2010 at 14:48.
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Old 28th December 2010   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Quote:
I was just looking at some pictures of Arnaud Jamin (this guy has some seriously lovely creatures) and it seems he beat you to breeding this species. Quite succesfully too (then again he seems to have a knack for breeding and lots of prime outdoor space -im blinded by envy-). I just found out, which is not surprising given the good ole french tradition of being seceretive about their success in the hobby xD. This is great news since two separate breedings from unrelated WC parents provide much better variation for future breedings with CB stock. Definitely something to be happy about for this rare species.
Were did you found this out? Are you sure? Having adults and put them to breed are different things. Paul Bauchauusen told me several times some of them are posts here in caudata.org, that nobody had acomplished the breeding of these. But if you saw pics/documentated info about then I will believe you. Sure some good news! The more CB genetic diversity, the best for hobby pops, Even that I doubt this specie will be in the "hobby" sooner than 5 or more years. At least I am not thinking about selling them... not the CB2010 and also not the future CB2011 generation, but instead grow more breeding groups if possible. And I think Armin will too.
Anyway thanks for the news Rodrigo.

Oh, also as update: The little guy died from dehydration I keep losing newts this way over and over again. Im so afraid for them to suffer from "the shine" that I end up killing them before the disease o.O'
The remaining larvae seem to be enjoying a lot, larval period as they simply seem that will never morph. I should change the subject to "after 10months" or maybe, even many more xD.
Insane larval periods. I confess sometimes I get bored... not!
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Old 28th December 2010   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Well, i saw pictures of CB metamorphs in a post from october 2010 (Ill PM you a link to the threat) in a french forum.
Sucks about the poor wee newtlet :S If it helps, Arnaud seems to be raising them semi-aquatically, perhaps that would be a solution to your problems. The dreadful "shine" doesnt seem to be at all common in semi-aquatic animals given the right conditions.
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Old 28th December 2010   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

Hey Rodrigo, well thanks. I mist admit French are really shy and secretive people. I never knew France could have such amount of non-common caudates!!! Some of them are really mind-blowing no doubt! Specially the Neotenic ones from USA. I wounder were the h*** he got those from, supposing they need really cool temps and always be inside of water xD.

About the guangxiensis I saw them but Jesus I seriously don't know. I have other paramesotriton with 7cm and not even those Im risking to force to be aquatic. About the guangxies, mine are all larvae yet. So if i try something like that I will never let them abandon water, but morph and keep being inside, but I seriously don't know I guess its too risky. I tried in the past with Lissotriton, Neurergus and Paramesotriton. All those got the shine and died. So you now know why i'm so "shinny hater"

Anyway, thanks for the news Rodrigo! I could never dig that up.
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Old 29th December 2010   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: After 9 months

O it's a pity the little fellow died... As you know i also keep my juveniles semi aquatic but hongkongensis is off course a different species than guangxiensis. What is the shine?
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