1700 gallon stingray river

[Energy]

Here are a few shots of my system. Length-15'5" x 5' width x33" tall. Dedicated to freshwater stingrays,poison dart frogs and mudskippers. I was thinking about adding a newt/salamder. Any safe suggestions?









The filtration room-mostly done with plants






Some of the rays in the water

[FrogEyes]

Bolitoglossa, Chiropterotriton, Nyctanolis, Bradytriton, Pseudoeurycea, Nototriton, Cryptotriton, Oedipina, or other species of tropical bolitoglossine lungless salamanders [most of which are rarely, if ever, available]. Apart from those, I wouldn't recommend any. Between salamander skin toxins, their willingness to try to eat anything they can fit in their mouth, and a general preference for cooler conditions, most would be unsuitable.

[Razzledazzle]

I don't have any recommendations, but I gotta say that is one kick *** aquarium! I am so completely jealous right now!

[Jakob]

Really ? Apart from the fact that Bolitoglossines are available it is very wrong that they should be kept similar to dart frogs, at least for most of them - and I think even keeping dart frogs in there is a very bad idea. I am no expert on that field but there is a reason most keepers do not use paludaria for their dart frogs, that is their disability to swim properly.

I really have to say that is one kick *** aquarium but it is not really suited for keeping caudates (or even frogs), even if you do not take into account possible mixing desasters.

[Kaysie]

I agree. I wouldn't keep any salamanders in there. The tank is far too warm to be habitable for any caudates.

[Rodrigo]

As much in awe as i am of that magnificent tank, i agree with the consensus, i would not recommend keeping any caudates in there. As FrogEyes says, the only options that could be considered would be bolitoglossine salamanders (although i still think it wouldn´t be a good idea to mix them with the rest of those animals), but apart from being very rare in the trade, when they are available they come from commercial imports of dubious legality, conducted in unsuitable ways, which means you´d be getting a WC animal, very stressed, possibly ill, who´s life span in captivity tends to be short...Not a greal deal for you, and certainly not for the poor animal.

[Kaysie]

Most people assume that Bolitoglossids are tropical because they come from Central America. But that's not true; they stick to higher elevations and cloud forests where it's much cooler than at the base of the mountains. They may handle warmer temperatures than other species, but they're not tropical. And they're almost never available in the pet trade. When they are, they tend to die quickly. They may also be chytrid carriers. I would be extremely cautious of any amphibian imported from Central America.

[Niels D]

Beautiful tank, but I'm curious which dartfrogs species you're keeping in there.

[Energy]

Thanks for the compliments!

Originally Posted by methodik

Really ? Apart from the fact that Bolitoglossines are available it is very wrong that they should be kept similar to dart frogs, at least for most of them - and I think even keeping dart frogs in there is a very bad idea. I am no expert on that field but there is a reason most keepers do not use paludaria for their dart frogs, that is their disability to swim properly.

I really have to say that is one kick *** aquarium but it is not really suited for keeping caudates (or even frogs), even if you do not take into account possible mixing desasters.

Many people on the dendroboard had reservations as well. Deep water and Poison dart frogs fatality is a complete myth. Although not aquatic they have no issue with water as long as they can get out with relative ease. I have hiked countless miles in the rainforests of Costa Rica and noticed the PDF's hanging around, and over the waters edge on logs and shelves near fast moving streams. This is what gave me the inspiration to try it.

On accident I bumped a PDF in to the water and before I could grab it and pull it out it swam away. Later that day I found it on dry land as if nothing had happened. In 2 years I have never lost a PDF to drowning or predation from the rays. They simply stay out of the water. They are much more nimble than people believe and have no problem near water,climbing, and getting around.

I keep about 8-10 pdf's in the system. Some Aurautus,leucs and tincs. I don't worry about breeding as their is no hope for Tads to develop with the stingrays present.

I was worried about the toxicity of newts/salamanders and their aquatic habits. Captive bred PDF's aren't toxic and stay away from the water. Newts and Salamanders generate their own toxins and don't rely on a food source to create it as a PDF does. That is why I don't have any and was looking for opinions. It seems that the consensus is NO as I guessed.

Just hoping that maybe someone knew of an awesome species that would be suitable but it seems not.

Thanks for the advice!

[Nettuno]

compliments, beautiful tank! but are not there many animals?: O

[Urmat]

Wow, I wish I could have such a tank.

[Energy]

Originally Posted by Nettuno

compliments, beautiful tank! but are not there many animals?: O

Yep- not many animals-I have a thing against overcrowding. I don't find it natural seeing 5 poison dart frogs or newts/salamanders in a 20 gallon tank. Although they will be fine in the enclosure- in their natural environment the would spread out. Even in a 1700 gallon system I can't duplicate that but I will not stuff it full either.

Sometimes less is more.

Part of the adventure is finding the specimen whether on a nature hike or in the system. Earlier I found a PDF, fat and healthy that I hadn't seen in about 4 months. Makes it fun rediscovering things.

Animals
8-10 PDF's
5 plus vampire crabs
3 or 4 mudskippers
4 stingrays
3 discus
various tetras and guppies
One black ghost knife fish.

[desertiguana]

I'm guessing a discus is a fish. Besides that I would trade a lot of stuff to get a tank like that.

[Thomas]

I would just like to chime in. At the moment, NO Bolitoglossines (genuses Bolitoglossa, Dendrotriton, Oedipina, Nototriton, etc.) are being exported legally, and it has been some time since any have popped up on the market. Also, Bolitoglossines live in conditions similar to North American Plethodontids. They are found at temperatures ranging from 32-65 degrees Fahrenheit, and do not do well at temperatures over 65 degrees Fahrenheit.*

I would not recommend keeping any caudates in there at all. It is a very nice setup, however! I would love to get some freshwater stingrays myself.

*I would like to credit Tim Herman for the information on Bolitoglossine exportation and temperature ranges.

[FrogEyes]

Many good points have been made, and a couple of questionable ones. It was not my intent to recommend any particular species, as their various ecological niches and legalities are diverse. I will only address this:

Originally Posted by Kaysie

Most people assume that Bolitoglossids are tropical because they come from Central America. But that's not true; ...but they're not tropical.

Please, and this applies to the great many people in the hobby who speak English, look up the definition of "tropical", because you are wrong. "Tropical" is a latitude, not a climate or environment. Anywhere in Central America is, by definition, tropical, regardless of whether it is desert, coral reef, swamp, or glacier. Widespread misuse of the term does not change its correct definition.

[Kaysie]

Originally Posted by FrogEyes

Please, and this applies to the great many people in the hobby who speak English, look up the definition of "tropical", because you are wrong.

Merriam-Webster says both definitions are correct.There is a difference between "the tropics", which refers to latitude (just as it would with the temperate zone, or the tundra [which is also used to refer to an ecosystem, not just a latitude]), with "tropical", meaning the warm and humid areas that are common within the tropics. But that is not the only ecosystem found there.

[Jakob]

Thank you for the correction, Energy - as I said, I am not an expert on dartfrogs Always good to learn from experienced people that also act against "consensus" in internet Forums.

[Kitten]

I must say...that is one bad *** set up!

[Cassie]

Talk about drool-worthy! What a fabulous little ecosystem you have there. I think those stingrays may almost be happier than being in the wild. Looks beautiful!

[Thomas]

Originally Posted by FrogEyes

Many good points have been made, and a couple of questionable ones. It was not my intent to recommend any particular species, as their various ecological niches and legalities are diverse. I will only address this:

Please, and this applies to the great many people in the hobby who speak English, look up the definition of "tropical", because you are wrong. "Tropical" is a latitude, not a climate or environment. Anywhere in Central America is, by definition, tropical, regardless of whether it is desert, coral reef, swamp, or glacier. Widespread misuse of the term does not change its correct definition.

Originally Posted by Kaysie

Merriam-Webster says both definitions are correct.There is a difference between "the tropics", which refers to latitude (just as it would with the temperate zone, or the tundra [which is also used to refer to an ecosystem, not just a latitude]), with "tropical", meaning the warm and humid areas that are common within the tropics. But that is not the only ecosystem found there.

Frogeyes, I looked up the definition of "tropical", and I would have to agree with Kaysie on this one. Merriam-Webster, as well as many other dictionaries, list both definitions as correct.