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Metamorphed Axy...

This is a discussion on Metamorphed Axy... within the Axolotl General Discussion forums, part of the Axolotls (Ambystoma mexicanum) category; Gismonikon, Humphreys? Why not Geyers or Freytags? A reference to German researchers. Geyer, H., and G. E. Freytag. 1949. Uber ...

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Old 2nd February 2009   #121 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Gismonikon,

Humphreys? Why not Geyers or Freytags? A reference to German researchers.

Geyer, H., and G. E. Freytag. 1949. Uber Kreuzungen zwishen Tigersalamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) und Axolotl (ambystoma mexicanum)und ihre F2-Generation. Mitteil. Mus. Naturk. Vorgensh. Naturwiss. Arbeitsk. 2: 9-23
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Old 2nd February 2009   #122 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Humphreys are what Germans call the Golden Albino form of the axolotl, as an honourific to the scientist in question. One must understand the significance of what was achieved - a neotenic salamander exhibiting albinism retains the regenerative abilities of the axolotl with the added bonus of albinism which removes the dark pigment that would otherwise obscure and hamper scientific investigations.

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Originally Posted by Tim S View Post
Gismonikon,

Humphreys? Why not Geyers or Freytags? A reference to German researchers.

Geyer, H., and G. E. Freytag. 1949. Uber Kreuzungen zwishen Tigersalamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) und Axolotl (ambystoma mexicanum)und ihre F2-Generation. Mitteil. Mus. Naturk. Vorgensh. Naturwiss. Arbeitsk. 2: 9-23
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Old 3rd February 2009   #123 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

in other words, its exactly what they have been trying to do, and its really rather rare?
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Old 4th February 2009   #124 (permalink)
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Default AW: Metamorphed Axy...

Click the image to open in full size.
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When they breed together Ive got larvs morphometric,Head,Gills very similar to Tigers-
and some of them morphe too-
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Old 4th February 2009   #125 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Very nice GismoniKon! Do you know of anyone else that has bred metamorphosed axolotls? This is the first that I have seen of spontaneous metamorphosed A. mexicanum breeding. Are you keeping good records of rations of metamorphosed and nonmetamorphosing offspring (also sex rations of each type)? I think it might help clear up some of the confusion about the genetics involved.

Are you a researcher? I think your findings might merit publications.
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Old 4th February 2009   #126 (permalink)
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Default Re: AW: Metamorphed Axy...

Quote:
When they breed together Ive got larvs morphometric,Head,Gills very similar to Tigers-
and some of them morphe too-
That's not very surprising, is it? Since you cross-bred Axolotls with Tigersalamanders they are not really "Axolotls" anymore (or to be more precise: They are less Axolotls than the ones with the tigrinum-genes from the Humphrey crossing some generations ago). The green-freckled morphs look like F1 of this cross (similar to the neotenic one I have from this crossing) with their stubby legs.

@Tim: I had offspring from a breed of morphed Axolotls once some years ago. All of them were neotenic.

Last edited by Daniel; 4th February 2009 at 17:40. Reason: changed a word
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Old 4th February 2009   #127 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Gismonikon,

What was your point for cross breeding the two species?

Sharon
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Old 5th February 2009   #128 (permalink)
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Default AW: Metamorphed Axy...

Tigercrossbreeding transfer new colours-
at this way we became Albino and Golden and their metalic gills.
Neoten Tiger can have fantastic colours-remember the one of ClarK?
I wanted to see if more is possibel-
Click the image to open in full size.
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Tim-I`m very intrested in that-
Geyer, H., and G. E. Freytag. 1949. Uber Kreuzungen zwischen Tigersalamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) und Axolotl (ambystoma mexicanum)und ihre F2-Generation. Mitteil. Mus. Naturk. Vorgensh. Naturwiss. Arbeitsk. 2: 9-23
But Im not able to find it-can you help?
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Old 5th February 2009   #129 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Hi Gismonikon,

Actually i can see the valid points from both sides.

There is a concern that intentional cross-breeding will result in a decline of pure lines of axolotls and tiger salamanders and therefore 'contaminate' the gene pools. Releasing of such hybrids into the wild would also affect the ecosystem as hybrids tend to have hybrid vigour and would outdo pure axies, competing with them for food, more resistant to disease etc. Research involving axolotls can also become confoundered with external variables such as impact of tiger salamander genes.

However, cross-breeding can also bring forth new findings, by introducing new genes into the very limited in-breeding axolotl gene pool. New colour variants, hybrid vigour, improved resistance or feed conversion rates etc can result. If the F1 progeny are crossed back to axolotls and subsquent progeny again backcrossed, the axolotl line can become 'purer' again, while at the same time selecting for desirable traits.

Therefore i i am a quite a fence sitter on this one. I think controlled research with defined hypothesis, outcomes, evaluations and of course with valid objectives will be interesting and can be scientifically rewarding but inexperienced amateur endeavours (especially with the intent for mass sale) would most likely be detrimental.

Cheers
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Old 5th February 2009   #130 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Gismonikon,

You may have to go to a university library to locate older journal articles. They are often stored away in the library archives and you will need assistance having them pulled out.

A couple more references people might check out for earlier records of hybrids between A. tiginum and A. mexicanum include:

Humphrey, R. R. 1944. The functional capacities of heteroplastic gonadal grafts in the Mexican axolotl and some hybrid offspring of grafted animals. Amer. J. Anat. 75: 263-287.

Geyer, H. 1956. Ergibnisse der kreuzung zwischen Tigersalamander (Ambystoma tigrinum) und Axolotl (Ambystoma mexicanum) und ihre F2-Generation. Aquar. Terr. Zeitshen. 9: 329-331.
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Old 3rd March 2009   #131 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Hi all,

I just found out that my little friend Rex is a morphed axolotl, makes sense because I don't think that anything else would have gotten into Australia.

I've had him for about 18 months now and have been feeding him mostly on meal-worms, woodies and the occasional cricket. I also freely admit that I don't know that much about how to keep him as most of my info came from the pet-shop where I got him and they didn't seem to be too cluey.

I'll attach some photo's once I figure out how. [edit: I think I've done it now]

He's in a part water- part land turtle tank with 3 Southern Brown Tree frogs. He's pretty sleepy and is a terrible hunter (that's why we called him Rex - after the T-Rex) but he's extremely cute and used to wave at me when he wanted feeding. He also used to follow my hand around when it was next to the tank and come to greet me when I was near.

Lately we had a heat-wave in SE Australia and ever since he's been off his food - only eating once in the past month and a half. He snaps half-heartedly at things that I wave in front of his nose but just isn't eating. I gave him a salt bath the other day in case the heat had caused a fungal problem so I guess we'll see if that helps.
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Metamorphed Axy...-rex-04.jpg   Metamorphed Axy...-rex-01.jpg   Metamorphed Axy...-n590926267_1331354_5526.jpg   Metamorphed Axy...-n590926267_1331355_6827.jpg   Metamorphed Axy...-rex.jpg  

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Old 3rd March 2009   #132 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Great photos Matt. He's a metamorphosed melanoid axolotl. Looks quite plump and healthy. How long have you had him/how old is he?
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Old 3rd March 2009   #133 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Hello Matt,

Welcome to the site, I'm going to be so 'girly' about your axie........he's so cute! I don't usually like the look of morphed axies, but yours is gorgeous! I love his happy grin on the first picture. Right, gushing episode over! I hope you get him back on track with eating, maybe someone will come up with some ideas on getting his appetite back up.
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Old 3rd March 2009   #134 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

I think you probably might want to get him in his own set-up with alot of dirt to burrow in. Here is a caresheet for metamorphosed axies http://axolotl.org/tiger_salamander.htm
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Old 3rd March 2009   #135 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

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I think you probably might want to get him in his own set-up with alot of dirt to burrow in. Here is a caresheet for metamorphosed axies http://axolotl.org/tiger_salamander.htm
Absolutely.
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Old 3rd March 2009   #136 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

Thanks guys, I actually think I've been lucky to keep him healthy for this long given the information that I was given. Rexs' tank will be getting quite an overhaul this week to make it more 'burrowable' - at the moment it's pebbles and water with a few logs, fake plants and a ramp - his favourite spot being partially submerged in water and under the ramp. If I'm making the tank more land based what would people suggest as a substrate? I was considering coco-peat because of its fungal/mite resistant properties (it works well for scorpions) but would that be to acidic for his health or too loose to use as a burrowing material?

I've had Rex for about 18 months now and the pet store had him for about 6 before that, apart from that I don't know too many details, they picked him up from a supplier that was going out of business so I wasn't able to trace him back any further. Those photo's are almost a year old now, I'll get some new ones and see if they can shed any light on why he's not eating. He looks much the same but has seemed 'sadder' and more shy over the past month. He's lost a little weight but as noted he was looking quite chubby previously so he still looks fairly healthy to my untrained eye.

I've noticed that he has been, for lack of a better word, 'shedding' recently - a translucent layer seems to be coming off him - particularly noticeable around his feet. The vet I spoke to (who helped me ID him) suggested that it might be a fungal issue - hence the salt bath the other day. I'm more familiar with reptiles and I know that their appetite can decrease when they are shedding - could this be the case with amphibians too? I'm more hoping for a yes than actually expecting one there because that would be the best case scenario.

Oh and while I'm writing (sorry for the length of this post guys) does anyone know if Rex's waving behaviour is natural or did he pick it up from being housed next to some bearded dragons or something?

Thanks
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Old 3rd March 2009   #137 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

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I was considering coco-peat because of its fungal/mite resistant properties (it works well for scorpions) but would that be to acidic for his health or too loose to use as a burrowing material?
Coco-fiber is the recommended substrate for burrowing salamanders, so you were think right! If you are worried it won't be dense enough for burrowing you could mix it with organic topsoil or sand. Make sure to keep it moist, but no so moist that it is "wet." Essentially, you shouldn't really be able to squeeze water out of it when it's in the tank.
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Old 3rd March 2009   #138 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

I do not use coco-fibre. I use top soil without any artificial additives (such as fertilisers or insecticides) Soil is a natural material that supports a vast array of living things and makes for a more stable system. Coconut fibre is just that, coconut fibre. If you can't get top soil then coconut fibre is the nearest but a distant substitute, in my opinion.
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Old 18th March 2009   #139 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

What has become of Freekygeekies metamorphosed Axololtl? Is he/she still around? Just curious.
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Old 18th March 2009   #140 (permalink)
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Default Re: Metamorphed Axy...

HELLO PEOPLE!!! *shouts* I hardly come on here anymore i recently got rid of my 3 rescue axies. Pumps kept going over and over again, i think its a hint i should give up. So last week they went. My axy is ok, he isnt eating as much as he used to but he is still alive. Im a little worried looking at others morphed axies on here.. they all are livign in water... ? Anyway yea, he is still alive it must be over a year now, must be. Gina :) p.s Ill try to get some new pics up :) pp.s i still get told off onthe other forum im on. For ''doing it on purpose'' ... pfft. Wouldnt even know how to, and if i did, i wouldnt.
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