Question: Cycling: Completely new vs. old tank water

[Eva]

Question: I thought it is unnecessary to change the water in a fishless cycling tank?

Note: Although the dropper test kits require more of an initial investment, they are much less expensive than the dip strips in practice because the strips are disposed after each use and must be replenished, whereas the dropper tests are reuseable. Sorry, I just had to note that because I have declared myself the natural enemy of dip strips.

-Eva

[Rayson]

Hi Eva,

Yes, in general fishless/axolotlless cycling do not tend to require water changes as the nitrogenous sources are not constantly being produced from live animals which would cause a cumulative effect. The piece of shrimp for example would be quite a finite source of ammonia.

However, personally i feel that axolotless/fishless cycling also requires some skill in which the ammonia source (lets say a piece of shrimp) has to be appropriate in size and also appropriate in terms of frequency a new piece is added. I have seen cases whereby overzealous hobbyist either add too huge a piece of shrimp (more like an entire king prawn) or before testing for ammonia level, add yet another piece of shrimp too quickly.

In these cases whereby there is really too much nitrogenous wastes, it might be necessary to do a water change or siphon off a rotting prawn carcass, especially if the plan is to add an axolotl to the tank soon after. Also nitrate levels may build up to a high level and a 20% water change before adding the residents, may help the new axolotl residents to have a more hospitable environment.

Hugs & kisses

[Jay]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

I am using the Red Sea Ammonia Fresh Test kit. It's not a good test. The directions are horrible. It claims to give "precise" measurements of NH3 and NH4, but the directions only refer to "toxic ammonia" levels and doesn't specify to whether it is NH3 or NH4, or a combination of the both put together. The directions are confusing/unclear and I assume, since the color card says NH3/NH4 ppm that it is just testing a total amount of both combined. They could have explained things much better. Don't buy this kit.

I have never used this product before, so I can't speculate on its accuracy and/or precision. Seeing as the bottle mentions that it measures both NH4 and NH3, it could very well be measuring the total ammonia nitrogen that is dissolved in the water. If you are really concerned about which of the two you are measuring, here is a handy rule of thumb for the NH3/NH4 ratio: For every one unit decrease in the pH measurement there is about a ten-fold decrease in the percentage of toxic ammonia (NH3). For instance, at pH 7, NH3 can be measured at 0.33% of the total ammonia nitrogen; whereas at pH 6, NH3 is only at 0.03%.

Originally Posted by mzcmn

The kit I use for pH, nitrites, nitrates and water hardness is the API 5 in 1 Aquarium Test Strips and I have no problem with that test. Still showing 0 or close to 0 of both nitrites and nitrates. My tank has been cycling now for four weeks, so maybe I don't have any cause for alarm and need to just wait it out.

You may very well have NO2 and NO3 in the tank already, but because you are using the test strips, you're getting inaccurate readings.

Originally Posted by mzcmn

I am having trouble identifying the amount of ammonia.. All tests have resulted in a .25 amount of ammonia, and at someone's recommendation, I tested the dechlorinated water before adding to tank, and it too, measured .25 apparently because of the presence of chloramines in the tap water, even though the water conditioner is supposed to break the chloramine bond.

Generally speaking, chloramine is formed by reacting ammonia with water that contains chlorine. That is two chloride ions are bound to one ammonia molecule. Therefore, the easiest and quickest way for testing chloramine in tap water is to test for ammonia using the ammonia test kit. If it comes up with a reading for ammonia, then you can be certain that the tap water has been treated with chloramine.

The water conditioner that you are using will say that it will neutralise both chlorine and chloramine. I've always trusted in its ability to neutralise chlorine, but not so much chloramine. The principle chemical in these water conditioners is sodium thiosulphate. When sodium thiosulphate binds to chloramine, it will cause the release of the ammonia molecule. For this very reason, it is advised that you double the concentration of the water conditioner. However, this could benefit your situation, for you are seeking a source of ammonia to seed the tank and start the cycle.

Originally Posted by mzcmn

I'm confused, I thought chloramine was very poisonous to axolotls...

You're right. Unlike chlorine, which is an oxidiser and has the ability to burn the gills of fish (and most probably axolotls, too), chloramine bypasses the gills and enters to fine capillary beds in the gills and attaches itself to the oxygen transporting molecule, haemoglobin. Such a reaction results in methemoglobinemia (similar to nitrite poisoning), and is characterised by the animal spending prolonged periods at the surface of the water. In other words, the animal is suffering from 'oxygen-deprivation'.

However, chloramine has been used at fish hatcheries to control bacterial gill disease. It has also been shown that chloramine has the ability to kill pathogenic bacteria and parasites in koi ponds.

Originally Posted by mzcmn

Should I do a water change today? daily? weekly? what's the appropriate frequency during cycling? I know if he was in the tank, I would want to do it daily or every two days, but since he's not, I just want to do whatever will help the tank cycle through the fastest.

I can understand the need to complete the cycle ASAP because it can be disconcerting to see your pet in a confined and unorthodox environment, i.e. the fridge.

Have you looked at this link http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml?

There is no set regime for cycling the tank, as results will vary across each tank. Because your tank has an ammonia reading of 1 ppm, I see no need to perform a water change on a daily basis. Basically, you will only have to start doing water changes if the ammonia gets over 4 ppm. If ammonia gets above 4 ppm it will hinder the nitrification cycle. For now, just let your tank do its business without any water changes, but be sure to check the water chemistry on a daily basis.

Although I see no need to rush things, I can still empathise, as you have been cycling for four weeks. So, here are some pointers to push things along:

- Increase the temperature. The optimum temperature for bacterial growth is 35C/90F. However, I am a bit wary as to what other bacteria you may introduce by raising the temperature. Nonetheless, the water temperature can be raised using a submergible heater.

- Increase oxygen input. Generally speaking, the amount of oxygen present in a tank is minimal. This poses a problem for nitrifying bacteria because they are aerobic bacteria, i.e. they require oxygen to survivie. In the community of bacteria thriving in the tank, the nitrifying bacteria are poor competitors for oxygen. That is, the bacteria that break down organics (excluding nitrogenous waste) 'steal' the oxygen from the nitrifying bacteria. A oxygen concentration of 1 mg/L or above it required for efficient nitrification. You can increase the amount of oxygen in the tank by introducing an air pump, or you can simply lower the water a couple of inches to create a greater splash on the surface of the water, which will facilitate gas exchange with the environment. The filter that you are using right now is perfect for the nitrifying bacteria residing in the wheel.

- Adjust the pH to roughly 7.2 for this is when nitrifying bacteria are most effective. By placing crushed sea shells in a stocking, and submerging it into the water, you can slowly raise the pH. This method does work, but I wouldn't recommend it because the last thing you need is fluctuating pH parameters.

The underlying issue here is the test kits for NO2, NO3, and pH. You will have to get liquid test kits for these parameters because it makes it particularly hard to say anything for certain when you don't know what values you are working with.

Keep up the good job though, and best of luck!

Jay.

[mzcmn]

Hey everybody, wanted to check in and give you an update. Axol has been in fridge for a month and a half. Tank has been cycling for 2 1/2 months. Moved axol into fridge when ammonia began to spike. See previous posts.

Ok, well there is no progress yet on this tank.

Ammonia level is up to 4 or 5 ppm, the generall Hardness is now much higher (120), but Karconate Hardness is still 0. pH is 7.0, NO2 is still 0-.5, and NO3 is still 0.

I had stopped doing water changes for a while to try to speed up the cycling process, but it seems there is no progress. Really want to get this guy back in his tank! Any suggestions for me?

[geosheets]

That certainly seems odd... I'm assuming you still have no livestock at all in the aquarium. I would think the ammonia should be down by now. Are you still using this Red Sea test kit? I looked at the instructions for that test kit and they certainly seem confusing... a link to the instructions is below. Maybe someone else can help figure out the test if you are still using it.


http://www.redseafish.com/languages/95/pdf/149.pdf

[mzcmn]

Yeah, no livestock. Just a little planaria, that I'm going to bait with grazed beef per the instructions on this thread, before I bring axolotl back.. if ammonia levels ever become inhabitable.

[Rayson]

Hi mzcmn,

Just to really sure, you do use only dechlorinated water right? Can you have a feel around your tank's inner surfaces and see if it feels slimy? Do you aerate your tank?

I must admit, im also somwhat puzzled. Without any animals (or increasing amount of decomposing material), i would not expect the ammonia to creep up so much. Also after 2.5 months, i would expect higher levels of nitrates.

Hmm one of life's greatest mysteries.

[mzcmn]

I am dechlorinating the water, yes. Yes, the inside walls do feel slightly slimy. Yes, I have an air stone in there and it's on full blast since axolotl is not in tank.

[Rayson]

Hi mzcmn,

You are doing everything textbook perfect. Sorry i really couldn't think of why your tank hasn't cycled. You do have bacteria colonising the tank surfaces otherwise it wouldn't feel slimy.

Ok here is my last jab at troubleshooting. Are you using the chemistry test kit correctly (correct number of drops, correct colour matching etc.?)

Cheers

[Pete]

That's an interesting problem. Have you checked at your local aquarium store? Perhaps it's a common problem for people in your area perhaps related to your water source. A small part of me wonders if the test kit is off, some source of contamination exists, or there is some other user-related error. I don't think I'd worry too much about your planaria, since there's nothing in the tank at the moment. I'm doubtful that they will harm your axolotl, especially since he's not in there at the moment. If you're having a planaria bloom then there's a lot of stuff for the planaria to eat at the moment, and killing them may be slowing the establishment of a natural balance. As an aquarium establishes different populations of microorganisms will bloom and collapse as they battle for an ultimate balance. Have you considered buying some plants or borrowing some decorations from another established tank to try to introduce some new microorganisms to your tank? I would avoid changing temperatures too much and changing water too often.

[geosheets]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

I am dechlorinating the water, yes. Yes, the inside walls do feel slightly slimy. Yes, I have an air stone in there and it's on full blast since axolotl is not in tank.

I would suggest confirming your test results either with a different ammonia test kit or taking a water sample to you local fish store and letting them test it. As Ray has mentioned, you do have some bacteria colonising or the tank walls wouldn't be slimy... which also means the ammonia should be coming down.

[thirdeye96]

try a different kit. I once had an API kit that registered everything at 8ppm ammonia even drinking water etc. Took it to be tested at a pet store and the ammonia was reading 0 ppm

[mzcmn]

Okay, well it's been about a three-month process here, and now the update:

General Hardness: 180
Carbonate Hardness: 0
pH: 7.0-7.5
NO2: .5-1
NO3: 20-40
overall ammonia: .5

I haven't been changing the water at all since last time I posted here, except to add water to replace evaporated water, to keep it at a level for the filter to work.

It appears my tank may be FINALLY starting to cycle?

Next step--bait the planaria?

[Rayson]

Hi mzcmn,

Those readings were such a big improvement from before. Im sure you must be delighted.

You can try planaria 'fishing' now or choose to leave them be if its not causing any harm. http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/Tank_critters.shtml

Cheers

[mzcmn]

Should I wait till ammonia reaches zero before bringing Spotty Axolotl back into the tank?

[Rayson]

Hi Mzcmn,

Yes that would be preferable. Any amounts of ammonia (even traces) can negatively affect the health of your axie.

Do you use live plants in your tank? It can help prevent those ammonia and nitrite spikes.

Cheers

[mzcmn]

I don not have any plants in there. In fact, my tank is pretty sparse right now: no substrate, one decorative "flower pot" tank prop for axolotl to hide in, an air stone and the filter. I plan on getting one more little tank dome for him to hide in.

If I do get a plant, do I need to quarantine it, and will I need sand to root it in? I know that java fern and java moss are good for axol tanks, are there other plants?

Also, I noticed yesterday a small round dark object on the floor of the tank which I initially thought was a rock that somehow got into the tank. When I went to remove it, it dusted away. It's all gathered back together in a clump and I was wondering what it was. Is it waste from the bacteria or planaria that's all gathering together in one place because of the tank currents, or is it something else entirely? There is nothing in the tank right now (Spotty Axolotl is still on fridge vacation), so I was curious what it could be. I imagine I'll siphon it out.

[Rayson]

Hi Mzcmn,

Some plants that can thrive in the cold dark environment of the axie tank include Java fern, Java moss, Anubias, Elodea and some species of amazon swords. Some of these plants such as the Anubias, java fern, java moss and amazon swords can be obtained already affixed to a piece of driftwood or huge rock, so you do not need substrate to anchor them. However, having substrate can help promote its growth especially if the plant roots into the substrate over time.

Plants can bring diseases and pests into your aquarium. You do need to quarantine plants for mimimum 30 days before adding to your tank. You can actually sterilise the aquatic plants too by soaking them for 10 - 12 minutes in a dilute solution of potassium permanganate. The solution must be light pink in colour. After sterilising, you rinse off any residue with clean water and then leave it to quarantine for the period.

Would it be possible to take some photos of the black specks you are seeing? It is hard to tell what it is based on description.

Cheers.