Question: Cycling: Completely new vs. old tank water

[mzcmn]

Just bought MarineLand Bio-Wheel Power Filter Penguin 100 for up to 20 gallons. Currently have a 20 gallon tank filled half way (10 gallons) that I do daily 20% water changes for, axolotl lives in it. I'll have to fill the tank up to 20 gallons to get the water to reach the filter because the filter hangs over the top and can only go so far down. My question is this: will it be better and/or quicker to start with completely new water to start the cycle, or can I just add an additional 10 gallons to the water already in there as a way to perhaps advance the cycling a bit. I understand either way I will need to remove the axolotl for a while until things level out. Suggestions? Thanks!

[Eva]

Hi mczmn,

First, more water is good! The greater volume means that it would take a higher level of the various toxins to pollute the water.

Second - the water itself only contributes minimally to the cycle. The beneficial bacteria colonize on objects like plants, decorations, glass, filter media. Taking out all of the water and starting new would only remove any bacteria that happened to be in that water anyway.

If you are changing out the filter, you can expect a peak in ammonia until bacteria have colonized in the new filter. As long as you monitor the ammonia and nitrite levels, changing the water to keep them low until nitrate begins showing (i.e., the nitrification cycle is functioning again), all will be well. You don't even have to remove the axolotls for it - you'd be doing the same in whatever container you have them in in the meantime, too, right?

-Eva

[mzcmn]

Thanks Blueberlin. Right now, I don't even have a filter. I am just doing daily 20% water changes, or if I miss a day, I go for 25-30%. I don't know what the absence of any filter means as far as the presence of bacteria goes--perhaps there is little or none in there, I'm not sure.

I'll be introducing the filter to the tank for the first time.

Given this situation, is it safe to simply add more water to the 10 gallons already present, turn the filter on and check the water daily, continuing to do 20% daily water changes until what point?

Without a filter at all, I've been checking the water and getting .5 for NO2 and 20 for NO3 generally. Dissolved ammonia level is around .25, with .0015 being toxic ammonia, provided I am doing and/or interpreting the ammonia test kit correctly. I am using "Red Sea" Ammonia Fresh Test and I find it to be kind of confusing, complex and not very user friendly.

[Kira]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

Given this situation, is it safe to simply add more water to the 10 gallons already present, turn the filter on and check the water daily, continuing to do 20% daily water changes until what point?

Without a filter at all, I've been checking the water and getting .5 for NO2 and 20 for NO3 generally. Dissolved ammonia level is around .25, with .0015 being toxic ammonia, provided I am doing and/or interpreting the ammonia test kit correctly. I am using "Red Sea" Ammonia Fresh Test and I find it to be kind of confusing, complex and not very user friendly.

Firstly, disregard the toxic ammonia reading (its all toxic).

Adding more water, checking it regularly and doing daily changes (less then 20% daily) is fine. But you don't have too remove your axie from the tank while things 'level out'.

[mzcmn]

And what are the levels at when it "levels out"?

[Kira]

When it has completely cycled (which can take weeks), ammonia = 0, nitrite = 0, and nitrate = 20-60.

[mzcmn]

Thank you, Kira. You've been helpful in several posts. Much appreciated...

[Eva]

The filter isn't going to disrupt your cycle - it will actually help because it provides more surface area for the bacteria to colonize. I am actually unfamiliar with bio-wheel filters (not even sure if that's what they're called) but I assume the basic principle is the same - filter media inside to catch particles and provide surface area for bacteria.

You are showing a nitrate reading which means you already have an established nitrification cycle; now it just has to grow to cope with the ammonia levels and you'll be fine. Adding water is no problem; quite the opposite. Like I wrote before, it dilutes the concentrations of the toxins, helping to keep them from reaching poisonous levels as quickly.

I know what you mean about the test kits - I have shaky hands and trying to open the childproof caps and get single drops out of the bottle are tasks created specifically for me in some dark corner of aitch ee double-hockey-sticks.

-Eva

[Abrahm]

Originally Posted by blueberlin

The filter isn't going to disrupt your cycle - it will actually help because it provides more surface area for the bacteria to colonize. I am actually unfamiliar with bio-wheel filters (not even sure if that's what they're called) but I assume the basic principle is the same - filter media inside to catch particles and provide surface area for bacteria.

Yup, the bio-wheels are specifically designed to provide biological filtration by providing the perfect habitat for nitrifying bacteria: high oyxgen, high surface area and high water turnover.

You are showing a nitrate reading which means you already have an established nitrification cycle; now it just has to grow to cope with the ammonia levels and you'll be fine. Adding water is no problem; quite the opposite. Like I wrote before, it dilutes the concentrations of the toxins, helping to keep them from reaching poisonous levels as quickly.

Eva of course speaks Wisdom. One thing I would add is that having nitrates may not mean your cycle is complete. Some water sources (seasonally) have measurable nitrate levels. It is important to keep testing for a while until you find ammonia and nitrite at undetectable levels.

[mzcmn]

Thank all. I've got the filter in and posed this question in the general thread about my axolotl ( http://caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58600 ) and thought I should ask the question again here also:

One question I have about my MarineLand Penguin wet/dry filter is this: Is the current created by it okay or stressful for the axolotl? This critter has been spoiled with still water for almost eight months while I did manual water changes and he/she seemed a little freaked out at first but I think it might be getting used to it.

Also, there are faint whisps of clouds whirling around in the tank now that the water is circulating and I was wondering what it is? Is it just material that's always been in there that I never noticed before because perhaps it just settled to the bottom and now is constantly being stirred about, or is it new material in the tank that's been introduced by the filter? Is the water supposed to be completely clear, or is it normal to have a faint haze in it?

Thanks again!

[Abrahm]

I'm not sure about the amount of current caused by your filter and if it would be stressful. Hopefully someone with a better idea of the effect of HoB filters on the current can chime in. I've never used those kind of filters.

The stuff you are seeing floating around is probably stuff that settled when you didn't have any filter on the tank. Try using an ultrafine net or a turkey baster to remove the majority of the material and then do a water change just in case. The fine haze in your water should disappear in a day or two as the filter does its job.

[Kaysie]

The waterfall from the filter could be enough to stress your axolotl. You could baffle it. Plants, rocks, plates, home-made spray bars, etc. Be creative.

[mzcmn]

I filled the tank up with more dechlorinated water so that the water flows in rather than splashing from a great height, but the tank is about completely full, and I feel a little uncomfortable about the surface being so close to the top because a) if he happened to flip out while I had the screen off for feeding or cleaning, it would be a lot easier for him to fall out, and b) a taunting cat peering in from atop the nearby television that I although I've made it clear to her that Axie's part of the family, I don't know how much I trust her, screen or no screen!

I like the advice of baffling the fall with other objects. As soon as I can, I'm going to try reducing the water level a bit so that I still have encasing walls above the surface, and adding objects in.

Just tested ammonia in tank. Still at .25.

[geosheets]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

I like the advice of baffling the fall with other objects.

A larger piece of filter foam placed under the filter output will help baffle the flow. The foam floats and you can fasten it to a suction cup stuck to the inside of the tank to keep it from moving.

[mzcmn]

ocean blue advised me in this post ( http://caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58600 ), that I should check the ammonia level of the dechlorinated water before I put it into the tank to see if there is a problem with the reading before even getting into the tank...

sure enough--.25 again!

What do I do? is my test kit bunk?

[Abrahm]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

ocean blue advised me in this post ( http://caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58600 ), that I should check the ammonia level of the dechlorinated water before I put it into the tank to see if there is a problem with the reading before even getting into the tank...

sure enough--.25 again!

What do I do? is my test kit bunk?

Your test kit is probably fine. The most likely problem in your instance is that your water is treated with chloramines instead of chlorine. You can confirm this by finding the phone number for your local municipal water treatment plant and giving them a call. Mine have always been friendly and helpful in helping me find the person to answer my question.

Chloramine is actually chlorine that is bonded to ammonia. Water conditioners interact with the chloramine molecule in such a way that it becomes non-toxic, but it is still present. Your ammonia test kit still detects that ammonia.

I don't think you need to be too concerned but I would definitely call your water treatment plant to confirm the presence of chloramines.

Edit: I just read through some of that older post. Your carbonate and general hardness are zero? Where do you get your water from?

[Kaysie]

To clarify: Dechlorinators break the chlorine-ammonia bond, allowing the chlorine to dissipate, but leaving the ammonia behind. In a well-cycled tank, this ammonia is handled by your biological filter.

[mzcmn]

Abrahm, I'm using tap water from the faucet.

New issue in tank.... I'm noticing very tiny white things, barely visible, like rice, on the glass. Is this the bacteria created by the Bio-Wheel or are these some living thing that's not supposed to be there?...

[mzcmn]

I just perused some other threads, and I think they are planaria.

[Jacquie]

Originally Posted by mzcmn

New issue in tank.... I'm noticing very tiny white things, barely visible, like rice, on the glass. Is this the bacteria created by the Bio-Wheel or are these some living thing that's not supposed to be there?...

I agree, it sounds like planaria. If you haven't already read this article, it will help make a positive identification and also provides tactics on how to deal with tank invaders.