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Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

This is a discussion on Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins? within the Tree Frogs forums, part of the Anura: Frogs & Toads category; Hey just before you read the rest of this all I'm saying is that my green tree frogs survived and ...

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Old 16th January 2015   #1 (permalink)
Cliygh and Mia
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Question Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

Hey just before you read the rest of this all I'm saying is that my green tree frogs survived and thrived with two oriental fire-bellied frogs.

Okay even though they are not in the same terrarium for three years my two green tree frogs (Jumbo and Tricky) lived in a terrarium with my two fire-bellied frogs, and they THRIVED. The male would call each night, and all the frogs in the enclosure got the same water from a large water bowl, and each ate five dusted crickets. Now my question is could the greens have built up an immunity the same way that the green anoles in Florida evolved to be more arboreal than the brown anoles that took over? I mean where I caught them there were three large ponds and plenty of spiders and roaches.(BTW never if you want to vacation in Florida never stay at Legacy Dunes, the place I described) A kid could have released his pet fire-bellies and they thrived in that area. Over time the native frogs that lived near that hotel motel over time and breeding developed an immunity to fire-belly toxin. Sorry for the rant, but with all the invasives in Florida it could be possible. I mean the only bad thing that happened when they were together, when my dad and I cleaned the tank, we didn't close the top, and Kermit the fire-belly who thought he was a tree frog, climbed up and crawled underneath the guest bed and proceeded to desiccate. So I'm going to end the rant here, and you can try to be nice about the theory and just so you know they are not in the same tank anymore they are in a nice, tall Exo-Terra with two gray tree frogs so just tell me about it in the replies




Last edited by Cliygh and Mia; 16th January 2015 at 13:40. Reason: It's not the only ad thing that happend it's bad
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Old 16th January 2015   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

i had a fire belly toad with my greys i dont see a problem, toad stays on the ground and the tree frogs are up in the corners and on the glass and the only time they come down is to feed or to get wet in the water bowl



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Old 16th January 2015   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

Thank goodness, other people did it to! But my point was I think they built up immunity to the toxins of the fire-belly. Like how people say if you put another frog in with a pickerel frog it survives the toxins of the pickerel



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Old 16th January 2015   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

Keeping fire bellied toads with any other species is a bad idea. There are no benefits to any species involved; stress, transmitting pathogens and build up of toxins are all very serious issues when mixing fire bellied toads with other species. It is unlikely you would really notice a serious problem until one or more animals became really ill or maybe not even until one dies.
This is a thread from earlier in the year on reptileforums (mods please forgive me for linking another forum) where someone wanted to mix fire bellied toads with other species and some extremely knowledgeable people told them why it's a bad idea; Fire belly toads with other frogs??? - Reptile Forums

It might have been successful for a while but would have ultimately ended in the death or injury of one or more animals. I understand that you were probably given wrong advice in the first place so that's why you kept them together and it's nice to hear that you no longer keep them together.
Please don't take this the wrong way, my post is not meant to be negative or critical, just informative.

Stuart



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Old 16th January 2015   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

No I mean the male wanted to breed with the female constantly and they were actually perfect (the female always had a scar on her back, but surprisingly it got better when she was with the fire-belly. I did move them out, but it was a space issue, I now keep them with two cope's gray tree frogs in an Exo-terra terrarium with climbing space.
Ether way (this is a theory mind you) A kid released his pet fire-bellies do to him having a male and a female that were breeding. Not knowing about invasives, he did so, and they kept breeding outdoors. The native frogs (Green, Barking, Pig) learned to cope with the toxins and can stand up to toxins produced by them somewhat. And they again were perfect until I saw that they needed more climbing space so now they are with two cope's grays.



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Old 16th January 2015   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

They were also captured in Orlando Florida near Walt Disney World and Universal studios



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Old 16th January 2015   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

The toxins are not necessarily lethal, plus they are only released in substantial quantities when the animal is stressed, hurt or ill and they are visible as a mily substance appearing from pores in the skin. This is not a case of developing inmunity, this is a case of one species just not being exposed to the toxins of the other in any significant way.
There are excellent reasons not to mix aside from considerations of potential toxicity among species.

From that link upthread: i don't buy the claim about toxins acumulating to lethal levels...it seems at best far fetched. One animal releasing enough toxins at a particular point that it could affect others without direct contact because of the limited space, i can buy, but that's a different claim.



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Old 16th January 2015   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

i had my grey tree frogs with my firebelly for nine years and nothing ever happened. i would understand if it was the toad being kept with newts cause they are swimming in the same water all the time but the tree frogs are away from the toad and only swim in his water every now and then. just my two since. worked for me so i cant see why it wont work for others



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Old 18th January 2015   #9 (permalink)
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Question Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

And I don't understand how I have a bad reputation. All I did was state my opinions and state a fact that I have been waiting to say because I couldn't join frog forum for some reason. And it wasn't bad advice I was just saying that my green tree frogs lived with fire bellied frogs, and if you all are going to be like that you might as well ban me



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Old 18th January 2015   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

Well, i imagine that you were probably given bad rep. because you are promoting a dangerous thing based on limited experience and a superficial stimation of the results. Like it's been said, there are plenty more reasons why mixing species is a risky business that have nothing to do with toxicity, but you don't seem to have considered or evaluated them at all.
That said, it seems like you were given bad rep. by someone with little rep. power, which means you could very easily get back to neutral rep. and onto gaining good rep. if you post helpful posts, contribute to the community and most of all, take care to provide good quality information.
If it helps, i've received plenty of bad rep xD



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Old 18th January 2015   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

Actually I hope people know this I did consider the pros and cons of keeping them together. Our house is running low on space for new tanks, they were about the same size, and all of them were healthy, fit, adult frogs that wanted to mate. there were plenty of hides, and the fire-bellies would occasionally burrow and the greens almost never came down from the vines. And they are separate terrariums now with two cope's grays (The greens are the same size as the grays just so you know).



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Old 18th January 2015   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

Keeping greens and Grays together isn't such a bad idea, as they naturally share habitats, so are actually from the same continent.

Stuart



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Old 18th January 2015   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

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Originally Posted by Stupot1610 View Post
Keeping greens and Grays together isn't such a bad idea, as they naturally share habitats, so are actually from the same continent.

Stuart
As has been stated before, that is does not make keeping species together "safe" or "okay". Dicamptodon tenebrosus and Plethodon vehiculum live together in the wild, but D. tenebrosus would devour P. vehiculum in an instant. There are many, many more cases like this.
And even if there were hardly any possible problems that may occur between the two species, there is zero benefit to the animals, only to your personal desire. Trust me, I understand the want to mix species, it seems fantastic in theory, but no good will occur from mixing the two, only possible harm. Well, unless they are symbiotic species, but I don't know of any amphibians where that is the case.
I hope this isn't offensive sounding, as it wasn't meant o be. -Seth



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Old 18th January 2015   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immiunity to toxins?

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Originally Posted by sde View Post
As has been stated before, that is does not make keeping species together "safe" or "okay". Dicamptodon tenebrosus and Plethodon vehiculum live together in the wild, but D. tenebrosus would devour P. vehiculum in an instant. There are many, many more cases like this.
And even if there were hardly any possible problems that may occur between the two species, there is zero benefit to the animals, only to your personal desire. Trust me, I understand the want to mix species, it seems fantastic in theory, but no good will occur from mixing the two, only possible harm. Well, unless they are symbiotic species, but I don't know of any amphibians where that is the case.
I hope this isn't offensive sounding, as it wasn't meant o be. -Seth
I wasn't suggesting that it is an ideal scenario, it is not, I was simply stating that it is not as silly as keeping together two species from seperate continents, and at the time I didn't want to go into much detail.
I know someone who has a polly tunnel where he breeds many different european species (all living together). A few years ago he introduces a couple of marsh frogs Pelophylax Ridibundus and they ate almost all his other species - just one example of what can go wrong. Needless to say, after building up his stock again, he will never be keeping marsh frogs in an enclosure of this style.
I also know a few people who keep greenhouses with many european species. These are all from the same area in the wild but the only reason this works is the shear size of the enclosure, if you were to keep these species together (even just two species) in a 10 or 20 gallon tank it just would not work - and these are from the same country/area/continent, never mind being from two entirely different continent. Hope this makes sense.

Stuart



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Old 18th January 2015   #15 (permalink)
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Unhappy Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

Sorry for starting a forum war for keeping species together from my rookie mistake. Also I have one question? My greens have black bars on their legs. Not harmful, but like the orange on gray tree frogs should I be concerned? I don't want to lose anymore frogs because my upland chorus frog, Amp passed recently due to either breaking the lower potion of his back and not being able to move except for crawls, or simply because it was his time. Hey, at least he is in frog heaven



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Old 19th January 2015   #16 (permalink)
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Talking Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

But if I can convince my mom I might be able to own my first caudate!
I don't know how, but my local Petco has a water dog (larva ambystoma tigrinum) and the next time we get our crickets we just might own a tiger salamander!!!



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Old 19th January 2015   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

It will be wild caught, and probably stressed and kept in poor conditions, I would suggest waiting and getting something CB, like an axolotl. They are pretty similar to larva A. tigrinum anyway.



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Old 19th January 2015   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

I know, but I have to make a move! Nobody around here sells salamanders or newts! even the expo didn't! If I don't get it now, I won't get one until I'm 18 to 20 when I move out!!!!!



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Old 19th January 2015   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

That's a really terrible reason to buy an animal. It's also probably not true, as i expect there's nothing to prevent you from getting CB animals safely shipped to you.
By buying that tiger salamander you are promoting an exploitative and cruel market and like Seth said, you'd be getting an stressed animal, which since you have no previous experience could result in difficult to deal problems.

Quote:
my upland chorus frog, Amp passed recently due to either breaking the lower potion of his back and not being able to move except for crawls, or simply because it was his time.
That sounds like it might have been a very severe nutritional deficiency. The loss of hind leg movility is a common symptom. It basically means the diet was very poor and inadequate for extended periods of time. What were you feeding it? There are other potential causes, but they seem improbable in captivity.



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Old 19th January 2015   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Florida green tree frogs built immunity to toxins?

we fed him dusted crickets, but while we were getting him a terrarium, we had no other tanks to put him in so we had to keep him in a backyard safari and feed him separately. He ate a few crickets, and hopped and probably got tired and stressed when we put him back in the backyard safari and he couldn't swim so I moved him out of the water and he proceeded to crawl underneath the lining, probably where he lost the use of his legs by breaking them. If it wasn't for his legs, he would have been fine. Until he had to shed. But ether way he was wild caught in my backyard, and he was probably 2 to 3 years old by that time to. And the reason I said we can't do shipping is that unless the shipping is free, we won't order it because most shipping is 40 to 45 bucks, and most salamanders are in the 20 to 25 dollar range so it adds up to 60 to 70 dollars and unless I save by either not eating, or not buying crickets, it's not going to happen. And the water dog is 12 dollars. And I am not a newbie when it comes to owning amphibians, and from my reading, tigers and their larva are easy to care for except for breeding. They need a soft, moist soil to dig into, a small water dish where they can't drown, earthworms, and terrestrial hides if you want to see them on the surface. And I don't have much time left to rescue it. it's tail (which is all we could see btw) was less paddle-like and looked like an adults tail. That means it's ether going into metamorphosis, or it is a young adult, and in a semi-aquatic tank with an impaction risk of gravel with no filter would not fare well.



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