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Where are the bright green orientalis?

This is a discussion on Where are the bright green orientalis? within the Bombinatoridae: Fire-bellied toads forums, part of the Anura: Frogs & Toads category; I remember a time when lovely bright orientalis were the norm rather than the exception. Looking at some of the ...

Bombinatoridae: Fire-bellied toads Discuss these lively little toads here.

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Old 20th November 2008   #1 (permalink)
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Default Where are the bright green orientalis?

I remember a time when lovely bright orientalis were the norm rather than the exception. Looking at some of the set ups back then compared to now, it seems that lighting was brighter and more extensive water areas were used. Also the more golden 'Russian form' animals were not seen.

Everywhere I go now, I see very dark toads with perhaps only a hint of green. Are they cold? Are they collected from different populations?

I would love to know the thoughts of experienced keepers/breeders as I hope to put together a nice bright green group..



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Old 20th November 2008   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

I have noticed that with my group they are the darkest in the mornings when the tank is at it's coldest. I believe the ones you are seeing in the pet stores aren't being kept at their optimum requirements therefore not showing their true colors. I will see if I have some photos showing the color range of the same animal.



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Old 2nd March 2009   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

No kidding, and I thought it was just by me! Hardly see any bright green frogs anymore, most are brown with a few light green dots or no green at all. I dont think it's temp or age because by me the frogs are all the same size and in the same tank, so if it was temp or age they would all be the same color, brown. They have a light over them so the temp in the store by me is quite warm.



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Old 2nd March 2009   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Since that first post I picked up a small group from a store that was closing down, they were fairly green despite being very cold. I carried on a winter rest period for them of temps down to 9c and even then they kept they're colour fairly well. Their new enclosure has plenty of bright green plants and a water depth of 6" with plenty of plants. They're not bright green yet but they're certainly not the almost black that I see in shop set ups..



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Old 2nd March 2009   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

I can't help but say I noticed this too.



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Old 2nd March 2009   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

I've noticed a lot more "Russian" forms recently in pet stores and the like. As for the greens, I think that much of that "brightness" has to do with temperature. It could also possibly have to do with locale or diet, but if my memory serves correct I seem to remember a lot of color variability in my individual Bombina.

Alex



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Old 2nd March 2009   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

I'm now feeding their crickets a colour-enhancing fish flake and carrot, so I'll report back on any colour improvement they show.

One of my males showed the same green colour at 9c as at 22c, so although my initial thought, I wonder if it's to do with genes and diet. Perhaps the collecting locale is different - hence all the Russian forms about now..

Their enclosure is set up to encourage maximum 'greeness' (like that's even a word!)..

Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 16th March 2009   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Hi, b/orientalis collected from China and Korea the chinese are not as bright and have blotches of brown on them ,it could be age as all orientallis start of either brown or have brown patches when just metamorphosed The Korean ones are a rounder shape compared to the chinese. Hopes this answers youre question. Sadly they appear to be importing the Chinese ones To get red bellys feed on brine shrimp but wash salt off and it only lives a few hours in freshwater so put your orientalis in a tupperware to feed on the shrimps then return to viv when fed.



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Old 5th May 2009   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Hello Vincent.

as far as I can tell China has always been the source for B. orientalis?

Or are you suggesting 1990's or so imports were from Korea?

I checked out a tank of orientalis today. Of maybe 10 animals, 2 were bright green. And this was interesting enough to me that I stopped and considered buying them......



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Old 6th May 2009   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

The toads can modify thier green coloration due to many items including stress. If the toads are stressed for any reason, then they may be brown and there can be significant differences in "hue" depending on how the toad is experiencing the stress.
Feeding the crickets carotenoid containing foods may not have a big effect on the green coloration as this color is the result of blue light being reflected up through yellow pigmentation. In Bombina species, this yellow color is mainly due to pterins (which is why cb B. orientalis that have not been properly color supplemented have a yellow belly) but can also contain some beta carotene. Any food supplement that contains astaxanthin will work to color up the ventral areas as this is the pigment that is in some populations of brine shrimp. For example you could feed the crickets powdered krill and get the same result.

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Old 6th May 2009   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

My FBT are lightish brown, but the underbelly is bright red and black and same with its toes, looks like the tips have been dipped in bright red ink.

They croak and eat fine, and are very active although they dont show any green.

In the morning when its coldest they are a dark brown, and during the day when warmest they are light brown, i dont think mine will "green" up.

May i ask whats the difference between Russian and Chinese species?

Thanks.



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Old 15th June 2009   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

hi
i have 3 FBT's, 1 is very bright green, i green-brown and the other definitely brown (also spends more time in the water than the other 2). I've only had them a week, and still learning about them but they seem ok. I didn't realise there were colour variations.



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Old 15th June 2009   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

It appears here in Nebraska, both color types are available; bright screaming green and poo brown...seems to be a 50/50 mix of them at all the pet stores.



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Old 7th July 2009   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

I too have noticed this. There's only 1 pet store by me who sells only the "bright green" versions. Out of my little group, 4 are greenies and 3 are golden/brownies



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Old 7th July 2009   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jumpshot724 View Post
I too have noticed this. There's only 1 pet store by me who sells only the "bright green" versions. Out of my little group, 4 are greenies and 3 are golden/brownies
Just spoken to a good friend who says most of the duller ones come from China there are some green mottled ones for sale in England and they are advertised as Russian maybe they are like b/varigata wth several sub species and regional variations as b/varigata b/varigata scabra b/varigata kolombatovici and b/varigata pachypus. Try to keep similar ones together , this needs some research on the subject. Just sent my friend 6 b/v/varigata and he is over the moon mine have very green backs and he thinks originate from Hungary which he hasnt been able to get hold of ,B/ Orientalis is probably the same-with several sub species



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Old 25th July 2009   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

So basically it's going to be unlikely to find a green frog, and even if you do it might turn brown in captivity? I mean I'm not complaining I will still get a frog even if it is brown, just didn't want to get my hopes up about a green frog.



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Old 25th July 2009   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

OK, so in recap the general consensus is that the frogs are being collected from a different locale now, and most likely do not posses the ability to display green coloration dorsally? I mean it is well documented that certain vitamins help color up frogs, but that only seems to relate to the red ventral surfaces. Also, it seems a bit unlikely that the pure brown frogs in my area (sadly) can, under the right conditions, return back to the green color. It seems that if a green frog was stressed it's color would just fade to a really deep green, not complete brown. But these are just armchair theories and I guess at least the frogs are still healthy, hardy, and active.



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Old 25th July 2009   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

OK, sorry I keep going on about this, I just really like the grass green frogs and I am hoping to be able to keep them like that. Also, I have found a little bit of confusing information while reading and some clarification would be helpful. First I read that deep water sections make for happy, healthy, colorful frogs. Then later I read that upon lowering the water level, the frogs increased activity and frequented the water area more often. Does this prove that it doesn't really matter and any water level will lead to a happy frog, or is it one level is actually better? The same thing was repeated with food items with countered observations about the success of worms or crickets, and then again with need to supplement or not to supplement. Sorry for my ramblings & long string of posts.



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Old 28th July 2009   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Right!

Having had my happy crew for many moons now, I've found that amongst the green form that I have there is considerable variation. One of my males is normally bright green, regardless of temperature, feeding, activity etc but all individuals showed a gain in colour after being fed on some green moth caterpillars that I removed from my Brassica plants (hence knew to be non-toxic).

As has been mentioned above, it is probably not carotenes that help with dorsal colour but luteins and these are not always found in the same sources. Animals which are greeny-black are capable of showing the clearer green colour but the 'Russian form' which may well be a subspecies (good point Vincent) is of a more golden brown colour and probably lacks the required pigmentation to go green.

Regarding depth and B. orientalis, I have read that they prefer shallower water than their congeners such as B. bombina but I think the best solution is to give them the choice with well-designed haul out points and vegetation. It's easy to provide shallow areas in deep water and give the residents the choice and security of deeper water.



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Old 28th July 2009   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Where are the bright green orientalis?

Another thing to keep in mind is they do change color a bit dependent on temperature and stress levels. My green ones dull down quite a bit to almost olive drab until I turn the food loose in there, then they brighten right up.



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