Rodents in Horned Frog/Af Bullfrog diets

[findi]

I don't use many rodents in the diets of Horned Frogs or African Bullfrogs (or other lg species) but many report good results by doing so. What's your opinion? Please see this article (Has 2 parts) for some thoughts/ideas. Thanks, Frank

[baddfish]

I know people who feed their pacman and pixies rodents regularly as their primary diet without any problems. I myself prefer mixing it up so as to give them a more balanced diet.

[findi]

Originally Posted by baddfish

I know people who feed their pacman and pixies rodents regularly as their primary diet without any problems. I myself prefer mixing it up so as to give them a more balanced diet.

Hi, Thanks for the feedback; good idea to mix. I know of many who use rodents also, and pinkies are a much better choice than furred rodents, but in evaluating their use we need to think long term. While longevities of 10 years or so, as is common, seem impressive, these frogs are actually very long-lived. African bullfrogs often live into their late 20's and 30's, and there are a number of 40 and even a 51 year old animals known. Fortunately, both species are very accomodating, so it's easy to provide a good, varied diet, enjoy, best, Frank

[Keith]

I just don't think rodents are a good idea for any amphibian. Just because they can eat them doesn't mean they should. I do second your opinion about going with fish as a good vertebrate food source. I wish I could think of the article, but I know I read of a study done on american bullfrogs that showed that using fish as a part of their diet worked well but rodents caused problems. Still, same as with people variety is important to any healthy diet. Earthworms, mealworms, crickets and feeder fish make for a great pixi diet.

[findi]

Originally Posted by Willlis

I just don't think rodents are a good idea for any amphibian. Just because they can eat them doesn't mean they should. I do second your opinion about going with fish as a good vertebrate food source. I wish I could think of the article, but I know I read of a study done on american bullfrogs that showed that using fish as a part of their diet worked well but rodents caused problems. Still, same as with people variety is important to any healthy diet. Earthworms, mealworms, crickets and feeder fish make for a great pixi diet.

Hi, Thanks for your note..you make a very good point. many amphibians and some reptiles that avidly consume rodents in captivity would rarely if ever encounter them in the wild, and have not evolved the ability to digest them as a steady diet. The digestive enzymes etc of rodent -eating herps vary greatly from those of most amphibians.

Sorry I did not link Part I above; there I mention fish, crayfish and earthworms as substitutes for rodents. T

The amphibians that regularly consume vertebrates in the wild are generally feeding upon other amphibians, and in a few cases fishes, not rodents (he frogs mentioned here, Surinam toads, Marine Toads). Pinkies are less troublesome than furred rodents, but during my years at the Bx Zoo our vets were able to link diets high in pinkies to eye problems (lipid deposits) and liver problems in tiger salamanders, basilisks, White';s treefrog and others.

I know of several adult healthy American bullfrogs raised almost exclusively on fishes and earthworms, with occ. crayfish. I''ve always used fishes in place of rodents for large amphibians and insectivorous lizards, with good results. Those that rely heavily upon amphibs in the wild (several horned frog species, Af Bullfrogs during certain times of the year) take well to fish-based diets. Goldfishes, however, should only be used in occasion (please see this article). Best, Frank

[EriduSerpent]

I think if you feed your frogs or toads on rats and mice you are technically promoting bad health, it is the same as a human eating Big Macs and fries daily.
In the wild they would eat anything and everything which means they would get a mix.
It is our duty as owners to mimic that diet and feed a sensible amount of insects, fish, amphibians etc Tests have been done on wild African Bullfrogs and very few had rodent bones in their stomachs.
A too richer diet is bad for their liver.

Too many people buy ABF for instance to just make them obese so they can show off on YouTube or within forums, the videos of them attacking live mice for instance are so stupid. There is a very good chance that your pet frog could be injured with live prey, I know one could argue that in the wild they eat live prey...but in the wild they die as well due to infections from bites. Why risk your pet being hurt?

It is easy to tell a frog which has been fed properly, healthily and steadily, their patterns show, their ridges are more apparent. An obese frog has stretched skin, almost ballooned, often smoother skin with hardly any ridges.
A lot of the time they will not have such good colouring and be sluggish, more lazy.



I treat my animals with respect as I am sure most people here do, they deserve the best because we are who they depend on.

I give mine a mix of Hisser Roaches, Dubia, Crickets, Locusts, King Worms, Snails, Earthworms and Sun Beetle Grubs, however one of mine is a spoilt brat and will not touch worms at all.
The other will eat anything at all

UVB lighting also helps them digest their food properly and helps the vitamins and minerals get absorbed better into their bodies.

[findi]

Originally Posted by EriduSerpent

I think if you feed your frogs or toads on rats and mice you are technically promoting bad health, it is the same as a human eating Big Macs and fries daily.
In the wild they would eat anything and everything which means they would get a mix.
It is our duty as owners to mimic that diet and feed a sensible amount of insects, fish, amphibians etc Tests have been done on wild African Bullfrogs and very few had rodent bones in their stomachs.
A too richer diet is bad for their liver.

Too many people buy ABF for instance to just make them obese so they can show off on YouTube or within forums, the videos of them attacking live mice for instance are so stupid. There is a very good chance that your pet frog could be injured with live prey, I know one could argue that in the wild they eat live prey...but in the wild they die as well due to infections from bites. Why risk your pet being hurt?

It is easy to tell a frog which has been fed properly, healthily and steadily, their patterns show, their ridges are more apparent. An obese frog has stretched skin, almost ballooned, often smoother skin with hardly any ridges.
A lot of the time they will not have such good colouring and be sluggish, more lazy.



I treat my animals with respect as I am sure most people here do, they deserve the best because we are who they depend on.

I give mine a mix of Hisser Roaches, Dubia, Crickets, Locusts, King Worms, Snails, Earthworms and Sun Beetle Grubs, however one of mine is a spoilt brat and will not touch worms at all.
The other will eat anything at all

UVB lighting also helps them digest their food properly and helps the vitamins and minerals get absorbed better into their bodies.

Hello,

Thank you..excellent points all. Actually, our vets at the Bx Zoo did believe that the lipid deposits that I mentioned in my earleir post were related to high cholesterol, so your Big Mac analogy is excellent (too bad more people do not take the warning to heart as well!!). you're providing a great diet; some other foods I favor and use are mentioned in this article.

Filming frogs attacking rodents is ridiculous, but sadly very common..smae sort of mentality as those who buy large snakes and even venomous species for the fear/false macho aspect, and feed them live prey.


Re the field study you mentioned, a similar one was done with Marine toads some years age...over 1,500 were examined, and only invertebrates were found within the stomachs. I worked in the same area where the research was conducted (Venezuela, central lannos area) and found that there was plenty of small vertebrates avai;lable, were the toads "of a mind" to eat them - mice, esp. near ranch buildings, small frogs, lizards and snakes of many kinds, etc.

There's a bit of conflicting info re UVB...I'm keeping an eye on the research and hope to have more details soon. For now I use a low output bulb such as the ZooMed 2.0, and provide shaded areas and dark retreats as well.

Thanks again, best, Frank

[Katie]

I feed my horned,.. cranwelli, fantasy, and ornata rodents

I do NOT feed them regular rat pups as the fat content is high.

I do feed mice or pinky-fuzzy african soft fur. I try to keep to pinky or fuzzy since the fat content increases with age.
They also get worms, crickets, feeder herps and roaches for the ones who will eat them.

[findi]

Originally Posted by ZombieAxolotl

I feed my horned,.. cranwelli, fantasy, and ornata rodents

I do NOT feed them regular rat pups as the fat content is high.

I do feed mice or pinky-fuzzy african soft fur. I try to keep to pinky or fuzzy since the fat content increases with age.
They also get worms, crickets, feeder herps and roaches for the ones who will eat them.

Thanks for your input; please see linked article and comments; an occasional pinkmouse is fine...furred rodents should be avoided as impactions may result; these take a long time to develop, and hence problem is often very advanced when discovered. Fat content is strongly influenced by how often/when the animal has been nursing, diet of female, etc.

best regards, Frank