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Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1831
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, 24 July, 2004 - 19:17: | 
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After boasting recently on the chat board about how so many months had passed without encountering any health problems with my newts, I now have a case of bloat in a prized Cynops pyrrhogaster sasayamae -- both swollen throat and swollen body. I'll likely take it to the herp vet on Monday (along with an extremely ill T.shanjing I acquired for free from a shop today) but want to do what I can in the meantime.
Anyway, I have given it a 15-minute soak in Ringer's solution, but how long is the recommended soaking period? Ed? Anybody? |
Edward Kowalski (Ed)
Caudata.org Site Contributor
Posts: 599
Joined: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, 24 July, 2004 - 19:29: |
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Hi TIm,
At work if I have a bloated animal it is placed intially in hypertonic for 30 minutes and then maintained in the isotonic ringer until it get better (or dies). This is the standard operating procedure and I put any amphibians into the solution before I even call the vets.
Ed |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1832
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, 25 July, 2004 - 01:48: |
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Thanks Ed. That's the first I've heard of hypertonic. What is this? |
Edward Kowalski (Ed)
Caudata.org Site Contributor
Posts: 603
Joined: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, 25 July, 2004 - 02:30: |
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To make the hypertonic ringers reduce the amount of water by 25%. It has a higher concentration of salts which will help cause water to flow from the animal's tissues into solution.
Ed |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1833
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, 25 July, 2004 - 16:24: |
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Thanks again, Ed.
Well, I wouldn't know how to reduce the water content of Ringer's solution as I'm not making the solution myself but using a commercial lactated Ringer's solution (Solulact, Terumo, Tokyo), which has the following
composition: Na + 65.5, K + 2, Ca 2+ 1.5, Cl A 55, lactate A 14. Anyway, I've rearranged my work schedule so I should be able to get it to the vet tomorrow! Here she is having a soak in the solution:
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Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1834
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, 25 July, 2004 - 16:31: |
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Ed, by the way, is this the same as Edema Syndrome as described in Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry? Is draining of the fluid considered to be a treatment option? Have you seen a case as bad as mine in a caudate, not an anuran, in which there was spontaneous regression? I've had good experience with this particular vet. I'll report the results of the vet visit, hopefully with pics, later on  |
Edward Kowalski (Ed)
Caudata.org Site Contributor
Posts: 612
Joined: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 02:03: |
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Hi Tim,
Yep it is. I have only seen a couple of caudates with it that bad a T. shanjing and a N. viridescens.
The shanjing survived the viridescens did not.
We make our own amphibian ringers so I don't have to guess when using other solutions.
Ed |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1835
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 02:11: |
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Hi Ed,
Hmmm, I wonder what is the difference, if any, between my Ringer's solution, which I got from the vet some time ago, and "amphibian Ringer's
solution". I asked about the survivability because I have never seen a newt with a severe case of bloat recover, though I think it was Ralf who said he has a newt with a swollen throat area that has survived that way for years, seemingly a case of "living with bloat". Anyway, I'm off to the vet in about an hour.
(Message edited by TJ on July 26, 2004) |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1836
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 14:21: |
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The visit to the vet went pretty well. The vet decided that the swelling would have to be drained because of the intolerable pressure that was being placed on the internal organs. After he drew 2.7 ml of fluid from the abdominal area, the newt perked up a bit and seemed much relieved, though the swelling in the throat area remained the same. The vet said it wouldn't be a good idea to try to drain all the fluid at once. As for the swelling in the throat area, he said it cannot be safely removed by the same method (something about fluid building up there between cells). Microscopic examination of the fluid revealed the presence of red blood cells and a possible culprit (which I'll write about later as the info is at home and I'm awaiting a pic). In short, I decided to have the newt hospitalized. Antibiotic treatment will be applied and further draining might be necessary. While the prognosis is not good, I'm hopeful as I have confidence in this vet! |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1838
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 14:32: |
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Frank Pasmans (Frank_pasmans)
 New Junior Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 15:33: |
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Hi there,
Looks like severe oedema to me. Often, intestinal problems (e.g. flagellate infections) may cause this syndrome. I would also recommend draining but moreover a more thorough investigation to the cause of this oedema (might be intestinal but also e.g. renal). By the way, the throat swelling can also be due to thyroid malfunctioning. Salamanders can live for years with this problem. I had some success in treating these thyroid problems using povidone iodium (Isobetadine). |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1839
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 17:18: |
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Indeed, just as Frank suggested the culprit might be, flagellates were found in the fluid. I read today that flagellates found in blood are often detected first by their active swimming, but the ones I saw through the microscope were not moving and apparently dead. My camera battery ran out so I was unable to take a pic, but I am having one sent to me soon and will post it then
It looked like one of these:
source: Amphibian Medicine Captive Husbandry
By the way, allow me to say I am absolutely thrilled to have a veterinarian like Frank contributing to the site! I need not even mention Ed as his contributions here are already legendary |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1842
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Monday, 26 July, 2004 - 18:59: |
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I should add that the vet seemed somewhat surprised to find flagellates in the fluid itself. Is this uncommon?
Also, after he noticed a worrisome bulge in the the newt's body, he used ultrasonography to see what there was to see. The results of the scan appear to have been inconclusive. I felt it myself and sure enough it was hard, though I'm not sure really what it could mean.
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Edward Kowalski (Ed)
Caudata.org Site Contributor
Posts: 620
Joined: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, 27 July, 2004 - 00:22: |
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While we have not detected any flagellets in the blood work of amphibians sampled at the Zoo, we have had flagellets as long term (> 20 years) of black-tailed rattlesnakes.
The couple of times I have had animals with bloat, fluid samples usually cultured out Aeromonas or Pseudomonas (and once Proteus).
There is a recipe for amphibian ringers on the caudata culture article page under bloat that you can use to compare (or use the recipe in the Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry book). |
Tim (Tj)
Caudata.org Moderator
Posts: 1851
Joined: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, 27 July, 2004 - 10:06: |
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I was informed by the vet that the poor thing died this morning  He says he will perform a biopsy to ascertain the cause of its illness.
Ed, thanks for the information about Ringer's. The vet recognized there is a difference between amphibian Ringer's and the Ringer's that I'm using, but said the difference is probably not that significant. Would you agree? Anyway, I'll take a look at the recipe in the article you mentioned to see if it is something I can do. |
Edward Kowalski (Ed)
Caudata.org Site Contributor
Posts: 623
Joined: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, 27 July, 2004 - 23:53: |
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Hi Tim,
I use amphibian ringers because thats what my old boss (K. Wright (one of the authors/editors of the amphibians medicine and husbandry book) had us use and the vets at work seem to prefer it.
Ed |