| Author | Message | ||
     Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 26 Joined: 11-2003 |
As a couple of you will know from the chat last night (and many thanks for your patience and advice), our female (Peely) went into cloacal prolapse last night. We're probably lucky in that it wasn't (after some initial doubt) swollen, and was transparent, without any obvious blood beyond the vessels that were running through it. We transferred her to a small quarantining tank with some tank water, and kept her in the fridge overnight (to avoid bacterial growth, and to slow her metabolism) with no filtration or substrate. The prolapse hadn't improved or worsened this morning, so we looked for a vet in the area who could advise, and happily enough found one. They consulted with a specialist in Edinburgh, who advised pushing the prolapse back in with cotton buds (Q-tips) and KY jelly, then application of a purse-string suture. Three-quarters of the prolapse was replaced by the vet before we felt that Peely had been out of the water for long enough, and the suture was not put in place, erring on the side of caution through inexperience with thin axolotl skin. We have antibiotics to administer, and are now monitoring her for two days; if the prolapse doesn't retract further of its own accord, we have a referral to the specialist. We'll let you know how we get on. | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 79 Joined: 09-2003 |
Leighton, Sorry to hear of your bad luck. I think cloacal prolapse in amphibians is one of the most distressing and dramatic conditions a keeper can face. (Pity the poor doctors and nurses who must contend with prolapses in human beings.) (At the risk of going off-topic a tad, I have seen this in treefrogs before, on a couple of occasions, one of which I happened to be the owner of. I have learned from my vet and his textbooks that the most frequent causes are trauma (e.g. a blow), infection (e.g. nematodes)or straining. I have also heard it said that genetics may make an individual animal more prone to this problem. There is always that difficult choice for the owner - a surgical intervention with the prolapse replaced or wait-and-see. The key thing with frogs, unlike axolotls, seems to be a temperature *raise* and keeping the animal in water; the last case I saw - again a frog, kept aquatically - retracted by itself in 72 hours.) Anyway, what I wanted to say is that sometimes these things really do resolve naturally and spontaneously. Well done for getting specialist help. Fingers crossed... | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 27 Joined: 11-2003 |
Thanks, Matthew. It was rather distressing to see, even though it is apparently relatively common (the vet we saw had rectified one for a snake last week). We were told that potential causes could include straining through egg-laying and large quantities of poo. Peely had a history of both, this week. The antibiotics we've been given are, apparently, for oral administration... does anyone have any advice on how to give these other than by attempting to ease the axolotl's mouth open, because we are having no luck so far. The antibiotic is in solution, and we have a small syringe (no needle). | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 80 Joined: 09-2003 |
Any chance of getting a needle for the syringe? If you are not of a queasy disposition, an easy way to give the antibiotics, in the right strength / solution & in the right amounts / dosage, is by injecting it into a waxworm, just before you offer it. I know, I know it is a horrid thing to do, but a vet showed me this and it works. I always worry about clients leaving vets with medication for amphibians that is neither to be injected, nor to be given topically, nor via a bathing solution... so how do you do it? With frogs (and lizards!) there is a way to open the mouth and put medication in - I've seen a vet do it - but there is a knack to it and it is a process that really worries me. I'd ask your vet for a "sharp" and try to use food items as a delivery vehicle. | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 29 Joined: 11-2003 |
Using food as a delivery vehicle is a very good idea, Matthew - I don't get queasy over worms, and I'd definitely try it if we had a needle, or the vet's was open on a Sunday (if I still worked at the university, I'd have nipped in to get one). We haven't been able to administer the antibiotic orally, so at the moment we have Myxazin at half dosage in the quarantine tank. This was partly also to fend off what looked like the beginnings of an opportunistic fungal growth (the tank is not currently refrigerated). The good news for us is that the axolotl is not off her food, and the partially-retracted prolapse has not worsened. She seems comfortable, but if the prolapse doesn't retract completely over the next 20hrs or so, we'll be off to the vet school in Edinburgh tomorrow. | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 82 Joined: 09-2003 |
Some miscellaneous thoughts, Leighton. *I've never tried to use a red earthworm so can only recommend waxxies (used for a lizard who'd snagged a toenail!). If you do use a waxxie, I'd suggest injecting away from the head, in the direction of the tail (it will balloon up but still wiggle) and wiping the worm before you offer it so that if there is any contact with the water you don't get a film of medication on the surface. It sounds like you really know your onions so suggestions to be careful about not injecting straight through the food item rather than into it, or to put the sharp onto the needle after filling the syringe would be deeply patronising. *I think myxazin is a great medication. *It may not be a fungal infection (if this is the area concerning you). The prolapse may change colour a little even if it is not filled with blood vessels. *Should stitching be required, this is a crucial process. It needs to be done so carefully if function is to remain there. *So far, so good... she seems to be in the best possible hands. There are probably quite a few animals in shops that develop this and suffer in silence, especially frogs who crawl away into a corner when just treatment with warm water and an antibiotic would probably save them. Keep us posted!!! | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 304 Joined: 11-2001 |
Another cause of rectal prolapses is calcium deficency, I would not rule this out. This is a common cause of prolapses in anurans. Purse string sutures if done properly work very well in amphibians and can help prevent the prolapse from reoccuring. Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 30 Joined: 11-2003 |
Thanks for the thoughts, Matthew. I don't mind being patronised - like everyone else, I forget things, even if they were once routine. And, while I can occasionally smell onions, I'm still firmly on the learning curve  . I share your concern at pet shop 'care', too... The fungal infection (if it was one) wasn't really localised to that area - it was a generalised furring along the side that had been in contact with a dampened towel at the vet's. It looked much like the furring that we found on our male's tail a while ago (there's another thread about that one) - which is why we suspected fungus immediately. It may well have been something else, but the Myxazin caused it to dissociate, and cleared it in minutes. I should take a sample into work (I'm in a mycology and bacteriology department). The prolapse has now turned white (constricted blood flow?)but the axolotl seems responsive, and is definitely interested in food (as judged by going for my finger), if a bit tired. Ed, calcium deficiency is an interesting possibility. Our pellets don't mention calcium in the ingredients or analysis, and I'm unsure how much would be in earthworms. Would the calcium in Holtfreter's solution be sufficient to prevent deficiency, do you think? | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 83 Joined: 09-2003 |
The last prolapse I saw turned pale white... it still went back in nicely. Your tip is fascinating, Ed. My axxies get "earth" worms (mostly), waxworms and gutloaded crickets - no pellets - how can I ensure sufficient Ca? How can you get Ca into worms? | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 305 Joined: 11-2001 |
Actually increasing the calcium level in earthworms is very easy. Just add some calcium to the soil with the earthworms. The calci sands are a good for this as the sand grains are easily ingested by the worms. Some people use ground calcium carbonate mixed with the soil but I prefer the other method. In addition earthworms and (If done exactly correct) pinhead crickets and mealworms are the only feeder insects in which a positive calcium to phosphorus balance can be achieved through feeding the invertebrate calcium rich foods. Depending upon the manufacturer, you can get a more complete nutritional analysis on request but with these types of foods the ingredients and ingredients can vary widely between batches. Ed | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 306 Joined: 11-2001 |
I forget to comment on the Holfreter's solution. As this contains calcium, it will prevent calcium loss to the surrounding solution (and I suspect the animal can scavenge some calcium from the solution but do not have any references documenting this ability off the top of my head.). Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 31 Joined: 11-2003 |
We're back from the 'Dick Vet' (Edinburgh Hospital For Small Animals). It proved possible to replace the prolapse without surgery or suture (at least in part thanks to the good work done by our regular vet), and we now have more oral antibiotics - but at least this time some sharps to place them in food. Peely seems quite happy, despite the long trip, and suffering my driving, and is not off her food even after all the attention. We're to keep her on antibiotics and in Myxazin for five to seven days, as a precaution, but it looks like she's out of the woods (touch wood). Thanks for all the advice and help - you set our minds at rest while we were quite worried. On an aside, while at the Dick Vet, they mentioned that Edinburgh water, at least, has moved from chlorine to chloramine disinfection, and that this has been throwing up problems both for pets and at the zoo. They provided us with a handy sheet indicating which proprietary products do and do not deal with chlorine/chloramine and ammonia, which I'm happy to share - perhaps on a more general thread. | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 310 Joined: 11-2001 |
Hi Leighton, If you filter the water through a filter containing activated carbon this will remove the chlorine from the water. If I am in a hurry and I am changing less than 25% of the water I will occasionaly use tempered tap water into the aquarium as the chlorine will be quickly removed by the carbon filters I have on the systems. Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 34 Joined: 11-2003 |
Thanks, Ed. I've since put the list in the Enclosures/vivaria forum, just for info. We've been using Tetra Aquasafe ever since we got our axolotls, and this handles both chlorine species, though we have a couple of emergency filters (ion-exchange, rather than carbon, I think) to remove ammonia in case we lose biological filtration. | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 35 Joined: 11-2003 |
Hmm... too optimistic, too soon... Three hours after we got back, there was a slight recurrence of the prolapse - not as bad as before today's treatment, but still there. The good news is that the axolotl is in no way off her food, and doesn't seem distressed at all. I'll have to call the hospital again tomorrow, and see what they suggest  . | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 84 Joined: 09-2003 |
I'm not surprised. My frog's recurred slightly less than 24 hours after surgery. Hang on in there! | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Junior Member Posts: 36 Joined: 11-2003 |
Peely's now in the Dick Vet for a couple of days. They'll be trying non-surgical procedures (e.g. replacement and inserting KY Jelly to extend the bowel) first, and suture/stitch as a last resort. Our fingers are crossed. | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 316 Joined: 11-2001 |
Hi Leighton, Given how many times the prolapse has reoccured, I am doubtful that it will stay in on its own. In the various frog species I have seen with prolapses, if it reoccurred after the first replacement it usually needs to be sutured. Good Luck, Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn)  Caudata.org DonorPosts: 40 Joined: 11-2003 |
We had an update from the vet this afternoon. The prolapse recurred again, so they took X-rays and noted that Peely's skeleton seemed under-calcified (looks like you might be on to something there, Ed), and also that she'd swallowed a lot of sand - possibly in an instinct to obtain minerals from the substrate. She can pass still faeces through the prolapsed bowel, so they're looking to 'encourage' the sand to leave the bowel before any more suture/stitching/replacement attempts. In the meantime we'll be looking about for a slate substrate for the main tank, and working out how to get more calcium in her diet. | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 318 Joined: 11-2001 |
Hi Leighton, As a general rule you want the calcium to phosphorus ratio to be between 1 and 2 to 1. Also an improper ratio of vitamin A to D3 has been implicated in poor calcifucation of bones in axolotls so the food items should have a vitamin A to D3 to E ratio as close to 10 to 1 to 0.1 as possible. Ed | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 319 Joined: 11-2001 |
If you are interested here is a link discussing calcium deficency in amphibians. http://www.tracyhicks.com/FFAQ.htm Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Caudata.org DonorPosts: 41 Joined: 11-2003 |
Thanks for the links Ed, but they seemed to be down when I checked. Here's an update: We brought Peely back from the hospital today. She's been eating and passing normal faeces, so the vet felt that the tiny piece of prolapsed tissue that remains was unlikely to cause any problems, and would likely drop off of its own accord. They tried using binding agents and laxative to help pass the sand in her GIT, but this didn't work, particularly so we're waiting for it to pass gradually. The location of the initial attempt to apply a purse-string suture has become a bit sore for her as it heals, but they've given us some Orabase to apply topically to protect it, and some Baytril antibiotic to reduce the chance of infection. Meanwhile we will be continuing the Myxazin antifungal treatment. We're also going to try to vary her diet a bit more, as the vet was unsure whether a deficiency of calcium, protein or both could have been a contributory factor in the prolapse. It wouldn't hurt to vary her diet a bit in any case ;) | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 355 Joined: 11-2001 |
Hi Leighton, I just saw your message and clicked on the link and it worked for me, so I'm not sure what is up with it... There are many items that can be used to vary the diet of the axolotl. Earthworms maintained in calcium enriched soil are a good source of protien and calcium. Ed | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Caudata.org DonorPosts: 42 Joined: 11-2003 |
We were worried this morning as it appeared that the prolapse had recurred, but by afternoon the prolapsed tissue had dropped away completely. :D We'll be keeping Peely on Baytril, Myxazin and Orabase for about two weeks until we're sure she's healed. She's eating fine at the moment (liver, pellets and earthworms over the last two days), and we've got our fingers crossed for faeces (that sounds so wrong!). I've got access to calcium carbonate at work, so I'll try enriching our wormery with that, as per Ed's suggestion. | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 100 Joined: 09-2003 |
First, how's it going now with Peely? Second, I've read the linked article Ed (very grateful for this!) but still feel a little in the dark. I hadn't realised calcium can be given to excess (only vitamins). My current treefrog regimen (sorry - I know this is an axxie thread) is to feed crickets twice a week. I supplement with calcium dusting twice a month (may up this by one, but I have seen them drop even lightly dusted crix from their mouths)and multivitamins once a month - is this OK? I guess what I am saying is the piece talked about ratios and percentages, leaving me a tad uncertain about Doing The Right Thing. [Crix gutloaded with fishfood flake and potato / carrot.] Finally, I once heard a herps man talking about waxxies interfering with Ca absorption. Any truth in this? | ||
| Edward Kowalski (Ed) Caudata.org Site Contributor Posts: 377 Joined: 11-2001 |
Hi Matthew, Based on your supplementing regimen I seriously doubt you are at risk of oversupplementing calcium. Personally with anurans I use a more frequent supplementation regimen depending on how frequent the animals get fed. At work, if the anuran is fed three times a week or less, the multivitamin is used with everyfeeding. If the anuran is fed more than three times a week we alternate the vitamin-mineral supplememt with straight calcium carbonate (We also use this for terrestrial caudates by order of the vets although I personally believe this to possibly be a little excessive with caudates). You only tend to have problems with excessive calcium when you exceed the recommended calcium to phosphorus ratio. With respect to the wax worms, if the calcium to phosphorus ratio is higher than 2 to 1, then you can have the calcium bind to the fats in the waxworm causing insoluable calcium soaps to form. Does this help? (Please feel free to e-mail me if you have more frog questions). Ed | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 102 Joined: 09-2003 |
Hi Ed, It helps greatly... much food for thought here. I'll "up" my supplements. I'll take this to an anuran thread. Best//M | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Caudata.org DonorPosts: 49 Joined: 11-2003 |
Hi, Thanks for asking about Peely, Matthew; sorry about the delay... She seems to be coping pretty well. There have been a couple of stringy faecal deposits (possibly due to bowel scar tissue, possibly due to the antibiotics) and she's passing the sand bit-by-bit. She's ravenously hungry, possibly because she's very keen to replace protein. She's eating (plenty) and not regurgitating, and all the signs are good. She'll be on antibiotics until the end of this week, at which point she'll be able to occupy a nice new tank which is conditioning just now. The idea is to keep the male and female separate so they don't keep mating ;) We're hoping that will reduce some of the stress on Peely's poor insides... Fingers crossed, she'll be out of the tiny tank she's in in a couple of days. | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 106 Joined: 09-2003 |
Nice to hear! | ||
| Matthew Dyke (Mattyuk) Active Member Posts: 115 Joined: 09-2003 |
... and how is she now? Any news for us? | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Caudata.org DonorPosts: 54 Joined: 11-2003 |
Peely passed her first solid poo yesterday! She's pretty much back to her old self, except for the repeatedly being made pregnant by Wally - which has stopped since she's been in her own tank ;) | ||
| kim bray (Jigglypuff) Junior Member  Posts: 37 Joined: 05-2004 Location: somewhere Nationality: england |
Leighton, Do you have and photos of peely prolapse? Please see the post floating... ive had some problems with my baby spunky and now when i got home tonight im not sure if its an poo that has been there for 5 hours poor thing or its a prolapse. But would be great if you have some photos it would help. Cheers | ||
| jenny gibbes (Jennyg) Active Member Posts: 85 Joined: 07-2004 Location: wigan, uk Nationality: England |
ok when people mention their axys poo they say its solid. my axys dont have solid poo. its dusty | ||
| Katy (Zenkatydid) Active Member  Posts: 108 Joined: 06-2004 Location: NSW Nationality: Australia |
jenny mine are dusty as well, looks the same as fish poo. i guess that's what they're calling solid, unless both our axies are odd :P Juju the brave, Aztec the meek. | ||
| Leighton Pritchard (Widdowquinn) Caudata.org DonorPosts: 67 Joined: 11-2003 Location: Dundee, Scotland Nationality: British |
Hi Kim, I'm afraid the photos we took at the time are not very clear, but this is all we have:   You should just be able to see in the photos an almost translucent sac located in the region of the cloaca. There is a fuller description earlier in this thread, but just to recap what we had, it was a small (4-5mm) translucent sac, in which blood vessels were visible. This translucency is apparently a good sign, as it indicates the tissue is not bleeding or dying. I think it is important that, if Spunky has such a prolapse, you consult a vet as soon as you can. Chances are they won't be able to help directly, even if they try, but they may be able to refer you (depending on your location) to a small animal hospital. We were lucky with our location near the Dick Vet, but I know of at least one other equivalent hospital in England. If Spunky is continuing to eat and appears to be otherwise in good condition, then you have the best possible start for a recovery. I hope Spunky doesn't have a prolapse - it's a very distressing condition. -- Jenny and Katy, Our axolotls produce solid, brown-to-russet faeces, though it tends to break apart when disturbed. When Peely was recovering from her prolapse, her faeces was generally 'wet', stringy and/or 'dusty'. When they were younger, the faeces was much less solid. | ||
| mik flounders (Mikki) Caudata.org Moderator  Posts: 106 Joined: 03-2004 Location: Manchester Nationality: UK |
J&K faces are somewhat like the size of kidney bean. And as Leighton says they easily break up. Regards, Mikki |
