Ampuation to save axolotl

One of my 2 year old axies got chewed up big time by a tank mate. I didn't see it, but I saw the dammage a few hours later, and its massive. The tail has lost some tissue, but the arm is much much worse. The tissue on all fingers has been fully removed, down to the forearm. The arm is all bone from forearm to figertips. The axie was in good health before this, and has no infection or fungus at present time.

The axie is getting weaker, and I fear that the only thing I can do to save him is to take off the arm, close the wound with super glue, and hope for the best. I don't know what else to do, and I feel I have a very small window for this to work, while he is still strong and eating.

any advice would be much appreciated.

pictures are from last night, more tissue is gone from that point.

I agree that amputation is probably needed. I think you should get a vet to do it; I don't think this is something that should be done at home.

I suspect that you cannot use superglue, as it won't stick to wet skin. Here is another thread where I quoted some info from the Amphib Med book:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=48733

Thanks, Jen. I have melafix, which might help out. I know that superglue will stick to the wet skin, I have used it in coral propagation, the gel form that is. If it doesn't bleed that much, perhaps it wont be nessecary. I have stress coat, which has aloe vera in it, which I will ad to the water as well, and it also claims to reduce electrolyte loss, which would be helpful as well to some degree.

I don't really like doing this myself, but I have no choice.

Perhaps a few hours post op, a weak salt bath would be a good idea, I dropped the temp in the container down to about 55, and I am going to try to get it at 50 or so to keep heart rate down. Anything else anyone can think of?

Also, do you think I can/should add melafix directly to the wound? is there a level beyond what is recomended on the bottle that is more effectice yet still safe?

Here is an update-

the procedure went perfectly. I used a brand new sterile razor blade, and I basically found almost no blood from the stump. I placed him back in a container of new water, with the melafix in it. I will be keeping him cool for the next few days, but I am wondering still about the dosedge on the melafix, and how low the temp should be, as I do want him to heal and that means blood flow and other considerations with temperature.

Why Did You Do It Yourself
What Are You Crazy

The amputation wasnt needed to save his life..he just wouldnt have used that leg and it would have healed on its own.
people in the axie forum have told how to treat this and you consistently choose to ignore their advice
You went from one crazy idea to an absoloute stupid one.
That wound would have healed perfectly on its own.Doesnt look like amputation was needed at that point.

She said in her opinion it looked like amputtion was needed but to be done by a VET!!!!!!!!!

Jeff, if it's not showing any signs of infection, I'd use the regular dose of melafix for a few days, and as the wound starts to show healing, cease its use. As far as temps, I would think that 15C would be good for movement, feeding, and the like, but still cool enough to hamper any bacteria or fungus growth.

Sinead and Roving, you're both out of line. Jeff is a well respected member, and has been here a long time. He knows what he's doing. I completely agree with Jeff in his decision to amputate. Amputated limbs are much cleaner, and provide much less space for infection. If he would have left the dead tissue on the limb, it would have gone necrotic, rotted off, and provided ample food for disease causing bacteria and fungus.

Hi Jeff,

That there wasn't much bleeding can indicate that the tissue at the point of amputation had already significantly died off so you are going to have to watch for continued sloughing of the tissue above the amputation site.

While cyanoacrylate gels do adhere well to moist surfaces, they do not adhere well to mucous covered surfaces (like soft corals like Xenia) or amphibian skins... Typically the several limb amputations I have seen in caudates were simply cauterized to prevent excess bleeding and then allowed to heal over (At work I had a Pleurodeles waltl that had a hind limb amputated close the hip and the wound healed over and the remaining bone fragment came out on its own).

I am still pretty leery of using anything that contains tea tree oil as many of the active ingredients (phenolic terpenic compunds) (such as a-terpinene, terpinen-4-ol, limonene, -pinene for example) or very close analogs are found in turpentine and turpentine has a known LC ecotoxicity for amphibians of 5000 ppb (http://pesticideinfo.org/Ref_Aquire.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35149&ReferenceNumber=6288 ).

Ed

Thank you both, Kaysie.

I too, am not sold on the melafix, but I wanted to be safe rather then sorry. And I was also not exactly pleased that there was such little blood, but the spot i picked seemed to have undammadged tissue about 1.5 mm past the spot I amputated at. I am pretty sure that was as good of spot as I could calculate, weighing in not taking to much versus not taking enough. I am keeping a close eye on it, and everything appears fine do far.

Why bother coming to this forum and getting advise when your not going to listen to it. To me it sounds like you are trying to wind up and frustrate people who care.

I also feel offended by the mentality that new users are more readily punished than long term users as we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts, no matter how new or old members are to this site. Modern society dictates equality and fairness, if someone feels so strong about a cause, they should be as welcomed to voice their opinion as any other user. Although some statements should be held back as not to offend other users, I feel if they can be written with some decorum, they should be left for all other uses to read!

roving1 said:

Why bother coming to this forum and getting advise when your not going to listen to it. To me it sounds like you are trying to wind up and frustrate people who care.

I also feel offended by the mentality that new users are more readily punished than long term users as we are all entitled to our opinions and thoughts, no matter how new or old members are to this site. Modern society dictates equality and fairness, if someone feels so strong about a cause, they should be as welcomed to voice their opinion as any other user. Although some statements should be held back as not to offend other users, I feel if they can be written with some decorum, they should be left for all other uses to read!

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To deal with your points in order. Jeff does in fact listen to the advice that is dispensed here. He has posted here a long time and he both gives and accepts advice. In this instance he wanted to use a procedure that people may feel is cruel. One of our most experienced members (Jennewt) thought that this would be best. I agree with her and Jeff. A small amount of exposed tissue is better than a huge surface area of necrotic tissue and a huge chance of infection. It was an unpopular opinion, but I think it was a good one as long as proper procedures are followed.

I agree that old users shouldn't really be held to a lower standard than newer members and I don't really think that was the case here. The internet is a faceless anonymous place and it is very easy for a person to try to stir up trouble and thus people are often wary of a newcomers intent especially when their first post attacks (albeit mildly) another poster. You write about decorum, but I did not see you use any. You attacked a person, not the idea. A post saying you think amputation is awful, or better yet, amputation is bad because would have been a better way to respond.

Your post wasn't edited in another way. You weren't really punished you have just received an official reminder to be more careful in how you treat other users.

I completely agree with this:

Although some statements should be held back as not to offend other users,

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decorum

roving1 said:

Although some statements should be held back as not to offend other users, I feel if they can be written with some decorum, they should be left for all other uses to read!

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Your previous post on this thread said only "Sad, delirious person", so I don't think you are in a position to talk about decorum. There are legitimate ethical issues regarding home treatment of animals. But your first post was nothing but a personal attack. We probably should have deleted it.

All users are welcome to voice their opinion on this forum. I expected there would be some who would disagree with what Jeff did. But I'm dismayed that those who disagreed chose to attack Jeff personally.

Hey all,

i must say that being so animal cruelty conscience I personally went ut of line with my own comments.

Although I do disagree with him removing the limb himself. Jennewt you specificly told him that you did not think this was a procedure to be done at home.

I agree that amputation is probably needed. I think you should get a vet to do it; I don't think this is something that should be done at home.

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I guess I just got a bit out of hand thinking it was cruel because he had not gone to a vet for this procedure.

Sorry guys I admit I was out of line.
Naymo

for what its worth i think you did the right thing.

advice is just that, advice. its not an order and if people arnt willing to allow people to make their own choices then they shouldnt be on here.

i know someone else who has amputated a limb before on an axolotl and while i wouldnt do it myself and would go to a vet thats more because im a wimp when it comes to things like that but i also know a lot of vets wont deal with animals like axolotls.

Ok, I have heard enough. Take it to a vet, well, eveyone who complained thought this was the only way to do it and I was mean and a "Sad, delirious person", to do it myself:

Well chew on this: I probably know more then any vet in seattle when it comes to axolotls. So why take it to somone who knows less and have them have a go at it? Are you going to send your dog to a vet who has only read about them in books? Thats just what I want, a "what the F is that?" when I bring it in to the front desk, in 82 degree weather, sloshing around in a cooler in the car for half an hour or more.

I used to work at a vet clinic, my ex did for a lot longer then me, and I really don't think somone with 2 posts, both of them personal attacks, has grounds for making a well thought out decision on care of a species of animal that I have spent over 3 years studying and researching. I didn't ask for a newbie opinion who apparently knows jack squat, I asked advice, and got it, and followed it, from members of this forum that know, and have valid opinions that I respect and trust.

I know I was going to catch heat from this, but I needed to make sure I did everything 100% right, so I accepted the worthless responses I was going to get. The assumption that older members aren't held to the same standard is simply not rational. If anything, they are held to a higher standard, beacuse someone seeing that I have been around for a while is more likely to trust what I have to say, therefore the mods are going to jump all over when I say something that shouldn't be tried by a novice.

I will be the first to say, don't try this at home. But I didn't beacuse I would have been jumped on for "not following my own advice".

Thats all I have to say about this issue, and as a matter of fact, I didn't want to address the personal attacks at all, but I hope this clears the issue up for those who thought it best to provoke me.

Jeff, all the people who were rude to you have either been given forum violations and/or apologized. Relax, no need to go on the defensive.

I agree that you probably know a lot more about axolotls than any vet in your area, and you certainly know more than the folks who criticized you. However, even an axolotl-ignorant vet could provide a couple of things that are almost impossible to find elsewhere: an anaesthetic and an effective antibiotic, both of which are recommended for this procedure. But I'll admit that it's questionable whether the benefit of these things would outweigh the stress to the axolotl caused by a half hour of "sloshing" in transport.

Anyway, keep us posted on the axie's progress.

Update!

The guy is doing great, there has been some noticeable healing, and I hope to see some finger nubs next week I hope.

now for the bad news- there was another attack, and by process of elimination, (there is only 2 left in the big tank), I have found that I have one sociopath axi- the other one had every leg damaged- not as bad, but still the fingers are showing bone. The weird part is it seems to happen really fast, like 2 or more attacks in a 20 minute period. I have moved, and I now have a seperate office that I set most of my tanks set up in along the wall, a few feet from my desk. I have been here almost all weekend, and I didn't see any attacks, so it must have happend while I was off in the other room for a few minutes. I seperated the injured one in yet another hospital tank. I feel like the one doing all the dammage should have to suffer the smaller living conditions, the hole if you will, but I need to have the injured ones in salt...

so what is going on here, I can't figure it out.

I've just read this thread and I have to say, not having any real knowledge of this species didn't think I had any input of value! Jeff, on the other hand appeared to know his stuff from all of his postings.

I'm glad the little guy is on the mend. And it's a shame you have an apparant aggressor in your tank. I know what you mean about wanting to put the "naughty guy" in solitary. That's how I generally feel about troublemakers in a group!

jeff....bad luck

at least you now know about the thug but its such a shame another axi had to get hurt.

i guess either you give it away or set it up in its own tank.