Floating axolotl problem solved

Overmind · Dec 31, 2014

This is also in a blog I wrote, but I'm still learning my way around this site. LOL Anyway, I thought I would also post this here so that it's more visible, as I've seen that many axolotl owners are having issues with floating axies

I've noticed many people are wondering how to stop their axies from floating. I was shocked to see such a wide array of answers, some of which are just awful. Refrigeration? Withholding food? One post even asked if the concerned owner tested for ammonia levels. What?!

Anyway, what works for me is to use a plastic ladle with small holes in it, like a colander. My axie knows the routine, so he is glad to swim into the ladle on his own. I slowly raise him completely out of the water for about 5 to 10 seconds, then slowly put him back in. He happily and effortlessly swims to the bottom. Try this first before doing anything extreme, like refrigeration or withholding food. You may have to repeat this from time to time, but only do it if your axie is floating for inordinate amounts of time. Generally speaking, this is not a huge problem, as they will eventually sink to the bottom on their own. But raising them out of the water solves the issue immediately and is also a great excuse to bond with your pet. :happy:

Hope this helps someone.

Stupot1610 · Jan 1, 2015

I think if your axolotl stops floating after you raise him above water, it probably wasn't a serious issue in the first place. When I kept axolotls inside there was one that would occasionally float for short periods of time but if you gently touched him he would swim straight back to the bottom and stay here.
I think you've misunderstood what is happening when other people are worried about them floating, these people may have genuinely ill axolotls which do need to be refrigerated - a widely used and successful technique. As for ammonia testing, this is also something that should be done, especially if your axolotl is floating. If there is too much ammonia in the water this can kill your axolotl. Ammonia testing is generally included in water quality testing kits anyway, and really, you may not ever have an issue but if you do it's good to have a water quality testing kit just in case there is a problem with the water and then you can solve it.
I don't really understand how raising it out of the water can do anything but stress the animal, but if that's what you feel works then who am I to criticise?
I'm assuming your axolotl isn't fully grown because I can't see an adult 10" axolotl being picked up in a ladel?
I hope this doesn't come accross negatively in any way, I just felt that you maybe didn't understand some aspects. (I also hope I didn't sound patronising)
Best of luck with your axolotl.

Stuart

Overmind · Jan 1, 2015

“I think if your axolotl stops floating after you raise him above water, it probably wasn't a serious issue in the first place.”

My axie would be floating for several hours and struggled to swim to the bottom, only to float to the top again. Raising him out of the water doesn’t stress him. Read my post, as I clearly said that he knows the routine and swims into the ladle himself.

“I think you've misunderstood what is happening when other people are worried about them floating, these people may have genuinely ill axolotls which do need to be refrigerated - a widely used and successful technique.”

I haven’t misunderstood anything. YOU haven’t properly read my post, as I addressed this issue clearly. Refrigeration is widely accepted, but that doesn’t make it right. It is a shock to the axolotl, as they do not like extreme temperature changes. Remember that the cure should never be worse than the condition. If your pet is sick, take him to a vet that knows what he’s doing—MOST VETS DO NOT know what they’re doing when it comes to axolotls. Many of them post on this site, and it’s irritating, to say the least, because they are giving advice that causes undo stress to these poor animals. Then when someone like me posts information contrary to this, people will say, "You're not a vet. What do you know?" But if I post such contrary advice coming from a vet, then those same people would say that the vet I cited was wrong. This means that some people will hold onto their views no matter what. I don't care about such people; my concern is for those who realize we are all learning as we go when it comes to axolotls, so we need to be open to new methods as they are discovered, and be willing to discard bad ones--not hold onto them just because that's what's always been done.

“I'm assuming your axolotl isn't fully grown because I can't see an adult 10" axolotl being picked up in a ladle?”

They make ladles of varying sizes. I use a ladle because the long handle gives me more control. The ladle is plastic and has small holes, so my axolotl's hands and feet don't get stuck in them.

“I hope this doesn't come across negatively in any way, I just felt that you maybe didn't understand some aspects. (I also hope I didn't sound patronising)”

You didn't come across as negative, but your points illustrated that you made assumptions without carefully reading my post.

Lastly, I'm not here to attack people; I'm trying to give information that will help people's pets without causing them undo stress. Some of the popularly accepted methods are cruel. There are more humane and effective alternatives.

Best of luck with your axolotl, as well.

sde · Jan 2, 2015

Refrigeration is widely accepted, but that doesn’t make it right. It is a shock to the axolotl, as they do not like extreme temperature changes.

No, just because it is widely accepted method doesn't make it right, like you say. However it wouldn't still be around as a method to cure floating unless it worked. Honestly, I really doubt it is a shock. If you were in a room at 65 F and then put in a room with the same air temperature but was being slowly cooled to 40 F you wouldn't experience any shock. It is a slow transition. Sure, you might get cold, but no shock will be experienced. They can easily tolerate low temperatures, so I really don't think there is a problem there.

Many of them post on this site, and it’s irritating, to say the least, because they are giving advice that causes undo stress to these poor animals. Then when someone like me posts information contrary to this, people will say, "You're not a vet. What do you know?"

I am not sure how you know this? How do you know who are vets and who aren't? There is a list of vets on the "View Forum Leaders" page, but they all seem reliable. Plus I am not sure why you think that vets are the ones who come up with the cures? Any hobbyist ( like you are demonstrating by posting your cure ) can find cures. Yes, I agree, people often hold on to what they think to be right even if it obviously isn't, but I really don't think that people on this site think vets are all that amphibian savvy. A lot of people understand that it is hard to fine a reliable vet who can treat amphibians. In fact, a ton of the info on this site is coming from regular hobbyists...probably most of it. I am yet to see someone counter people who aren't vets...

my concern is for those who realize we are all learning as we go when it comes to axolotls, so we need to be open to new methods as they are discovered, and be willing to discard bad ones--not hold onto them just because that's what's always been done.

I completely agree! In fact, your method is interesting me. If you back it up with some reasons why it works than people might start recognizing it as a good method. However, at this point all you have given us is your experiences, it will take more data and explanations to back up your finding before it will be accepted. And so, for the time being, fridgeing is a common method for curing floating.

I'm trying to give information that will help people's pets without causing them undo stress. Some of the popularly accepted methods are cruel. There are more humane and effective alternatives.

If you have a child that is sick ( I am not comparing axolotls to children FYI ), will you not do what you can to help him recover, weather he likes it or not? I really don't think cruel is the right word, uncomfortable, sure, disliked, yeah, probably, but you need to do what is best for the axolotl. And at this point fridgeing is what is know to help them recover.
I am interested to hear what other methods you have, they could be great help to the hobby.

One post even asked if the concerned owner tested for ammonia levels. What?!

This is good advice, ammonia is a serious threat.

Like Stuart, I am not trying to offend you or come across negatively

-Seth

Stupot1610 · Jan 2, 2015

If that works for your axolotl, then fine, keep doing it, that's fair enough. But, I really don't think you Should be advising other people to use this method, you keep going back to saying how refrigeration is cruel (which it most certainly is not) but, I see this method as pretty cruel and causing unnecessary stress to the animal involved.
He might know the routine, but that does not mean it is even slightly enjoyable for him.
There is no way you can possibly tell me for definite that this is not stressing your animal, in fact raising any axolotl out of water is going to do very little other than stressing it.
I can assure you, I read your post thoroughly. I think your views on refrigeration are totally unfounded, and rather ignorant. If done properly refrigeration is barely a shock, you don't just dump your axolotl in a tub of water that's been in the fridge. Refrigeration is widely accepted, and is right. No doubt about it. You see, we here on caudata.org are very, very careful about how we care for our animals and if we thought it was cruel, as you claim, there is absolutely no way we would still be using and recommending this technique to others. Again, if done properly they have the time to adjust to the new temperature it isn't a shock. And, by the way, axolotls are perfectly happy at 4c (the temperature of most fridges) and even lower so it's really not a bad temperature for them. My group in my axolotl pond outside will spend days, or even weeks at temperatures close to freezing during the winter, the temperature will even go down to -3c some days but that is barely enough to make ice on the surface.
I don't know what vets you are referring to, but I'm sure if anyone posts wrong information on this site somebody will be able to correct it.
I don't think I've ever seen someone say "you're not a vet, what do you know?".
And I can tell you for a fact, the best information we get on here is from other hobbyists who have experience with the species in question.
Bad methods are forgotten about, and people stop using them, they only use method that will not harm the animal and will make it better.
I don't really understand this ladle thing, I honestly think it sounds a bit cruel. But if it works for you.
Seth also makes some very good points.

Stuart

Overmind · Jan 2, 2015

To Stuart:

From Guide to Axolotl Husbandry

"We change the water of axolotls housed in individual bowls by carefully pouring it, axolotl and all, into a plastic colander. We clean the bowl with scrub mixture (baking soda and salt mixed together in a 2:1 ratio), put in a fresh pitcher of water, and return the axolotl to its home. The axolotls will tolerate short periods of time out of the water very well. They are able to continue gas exchange as long as their skin is moist, but never leave them out of the water long enough for their skin to dry out or become "tacky."

There's your citation.

Overmind · Jan 2, 2015

To Seth:
How long does it take to slowly and gradually get your axolotl used to the refrigeration? Because my method of removing him from the water and putting him back in takes about 10 seconds.

sde · Jan 2, 2015

Overmind said:
To Seth:
How long does it take to slowly and gradually get your axolotl used to the refrigeration? Because my method of removing him from the water and putting him back in takes about 10 seconds.

Why does it matter? Whatever works, works, so as long as it is not cruel to the animal then why not use the method? It really isn't about how long it takes or how hard it is, but how well it treats the problem.
I don't know about Stuart, but I, anyway, like the idea of your method, like you say, it is shorter and requires less effort. It may stress the axolotl more, though, but only for a very short period. However at this time we only have one claim of it working, and it will take a lot more people trying this to really determine if it is a effective cure. Don't get me wrong, I am most certainly open to new ideas and cures etc., but there just isn't enough data behind this method to really say it is a for sure thing.

If you collect more data and maybe get some other people to try this out let me know, if you don't mind, as I will be interested in the results. -Seth

Asevernnnn · Jan 2, 2015

Overmind said:
To Stuart:

From Guide to Axolotl Husbandry

"We change the water of axolotls housed in individual bowls by carefully pouring it, axolotl and all, into a plastic colander. We clean the bowl with scrub mixture (baking soda and salt mixed together in a 2:1 ratio), put in a fresh pitcher of water, and return the axolotl to its home. The axolotls will tolerate short periods of time out of the water very well. They are able to continue gas exchange as long as their skin is moist, but never leave them out of the water long enough for their skin to dry out or become "tacky."

There's your citation.

That article also says they keep their adult axolotls in bowls and to have half a gallon per axolotl so I don't know if I would trust that source

Stupot1610 · Jan 2, 2015

I'm going to say this as quickly as possible. If it works for you, fine, but don't go round advising other people to use this unfounded and frankly weird method of stopping your axolotl floating. Often axolotls float for no reason, they are fine and a simple gently prod and the swim right back down. Personally, I think this 'method' is utter nonsense and has no benefit to the axolotl whatsoever. But, please feel free to prove me wrong, though I know at the moment this is completely impossible as you have no research to back it up.
I really don't enjoy confrontational threads like this and I only ever get involved if I think what's going on is not right, and I feel in this case that without enough research to back it up you should not be reccomending your so-called 'method' to fellow hobbyists.
I'm afraid I'm going to stop responding to this thread as I feel it has gone too far, and is sending my blood pressure through the roof... Lol

But, on another note, if this works for your axolotl by all means keep on doing it.

Stuart

Stupot1610 · Jan 2, 2015

Overmind said:
To Stuart:

From Guide to Axolotl Husbandry

"We change the water of axolotls housed in individual bowls by carefully pouring it, axolotl and all, into a plastic colander. We clean the bowl with scrub mixture (baking soda and salt mixed together in a 2:1 ratio), put in a fresh pitcher of water, and return the axolotl to its home. The axolotls will tolerate short periods of time out of the water very well. They are able to continue gas exchange as long as their skin is moist, but never leave them out of the water long enough for their skin to dry out or become "tacky."

There's your citation.

This doesn't really mean anything to me I'm afraid. They seem to keep their axolotls in inadequate conditions, and as already stated, I don't know if I would trust them.

Stuart

sde · Jan 2, 2015

ThoseNewtsTho said:
That article also says they keep their adult axolotls in bowls and to have half a gallon per axolotl so I don't know if I would trust that source

I think it is for research, so they probably don't really care about their axolotls quality of life.

A half gallon (2 liters) of water per axolotl is adequate, provided that the animal is completely submerged and the water is changed frequently.

Adequate?! :nono:

Axolotls are fine out of the water for short periods, but it undoubtedly isn't a enjoyable experience. 10 seconds is that long, though.

Overmind · Jan 2, 2015

There seems to be an all-or-nothing thinking going on here. My citation is from a lab, so they probably don’t care about the living conditions of the axolotls. But my point for citing it was about the fact that axolotls can tolerate being taken out of the water for short periods. People who do 100% water changes must take their axolotls out of the water. When refrigerating your axolotls, do you not remove them from the water in order to transfer them to a smaller container? If so, then how is your method any less cruel than mine? I have simply discovered that the act of removing them from the water is what stops the floating—not the refrigeration. That was my only point. I do not agree with the lab’s keeping axolotls in such conditions, but I assumed that people’s common sense would be able to decipher what is good and not good.

To Seth:

You previously stated:

“If you have a child that is sick ( I am not comparing axolotls to children FYI ), will you not do what you can to help him recover, weather he likes it or not?”

Of course, but not if a more effective, less stressful treatment were available. I am simply offering such a treatment. And trying it will do absolutely no harm to your pet, as refrigeration itself requires your removing him from the water (to put him in another container). I am not telling people to add some potentially harmful chemical to the water, or any such thing. My treatment is simple, harmless, and inevitable, as 100% water changes are required periodically even for owners who use filtration. (The throttling down of filters in order to spare axies the stress of fast water movement reduces filters’ efficacy.)

To Stuart:

If your blood pressure is rising simply from a forum post, you have to consider that perhaps you are not as open to new ideas as you think. I have said nothing to cause such a reaction from you. I have not insulted you—though you have made plenty of personal attacks against me—which I thought was not allowed on this site, by the way. So you are just the type of person who can dish it out but can't take it. If you're so thin-skinned, then don't start arguments with people. Keep your comments to yourself. Don't think you can make insults at me and that I'm just going to sit here and take it. You insult me and then say that you hope I'm not offended by anything you say. LOL Maybe you should give up forum posting and take up comedy.

So Happy New Year to everyone.

Peace. J

Stupot1610 · Jan 3, 2015

If your blood pressure is rising simply from a forum post, you have to consider that perhaps you are not as open to new ideas as you think

It's called a joke, hence the 'Lol' afterwards.

. I have said nothing to cause such a reaction from you.

I just feel the advice you are offering is not backed up by any proper research to make it viable, and the problem you are describing can be fixed in an easier way.

. have not insulted you—though you have made plenty of personal attacks against me—which I thought was not allowed on this site, by the way

I have made not a single 'personal attack' as you claim. I just disagree with some points you make, I have read my posts thoroughly and I can not find a single 'personal attack'. I am also fully aqaunted with the forum rules. However, I am very sorry if it seems like I have been insulting you, this was not my intention whatsoever.
I do feel though, that you are unwilling to accept that your 'method' may not be as good as you think it is. But like I say, if it works for you please keep using it, but perhaps doing some research on your method before recommending it to others would be a good idea.

Don't think you can make insults at me and that I'm just going to sit here and take it.

I think you'll find that I have made no insults at all.

If your blood pressure is rising simply from a forum post, you have to consider that perhaps you are not as open to new ideas as you think. I have said nothing to cause such a reaction from you. I have not insulted you—though you have made plenty of personal attacks against me—which I thought was not allowed on this site, by the way. So you are just the type of person who can dish it out but can't take it. If you're so thin-skinned, then don't start arguments with people. Keep your comments to yourself. Don't think you can make insults at me and that I'm just going to sit here and take it. You insult me and then say that you hope I'm not offended by anything you say. LOL Maybe you should give up forum posting and take up comedy.

I actually find this entire paragraph very offensive and wholly unnecessary.

I am not the kind of person to make an argument, or insult people so if that's how you see me then you've got me very wrong. I try not to get involved with these threads, but I did feel that you method was not researched enough to make it viable. You may not realise it but you have been coming out with many insults directed towards me. I am very sorry if I have come across rude in any way, it was by no means intended and I'm sure it is the same with you - I know you're doing the best for your axolotl.
Best wishes,

Stuart

Overmind · Jan 4, 2015

Writing posts is difficult, because there's no emotion. I think we would all have avoided any confrontation if this happened face-to-face. Probably would've resolved any differences in about 5 minutes. LOL

Best wishes to everyone.

sde · Jan 4, 2015

Of course, but not if a more effective, less stressful treatment were available. I am simply offering such a treatment. And trying it will do absolutely no harm to your pet, as refrigeration itself requires your removing him from the water (to put him in another container). I am not telling people to add some potentially harmful chemical to the water, or any such thing. My treatment is simple, harmless, and inevitable, as 100% water changes are required periodically even for owners who use filtration. (The throttling down of filters in order to spare axies the stress of fast water movement reduces filters’ efficacy.)

Yes, of course if there is a more effective less harmful way I will use it. However, I have said throughout this thread ( as well as others ) that you simply do not have enough proof. Do I trust it works for you? Sure, I will trust you on that. But this is only the case with one axolotl and one owner, no one else ( my knowledge ) has any experience of this whatsoever. So ( like Stuart says ), to say that the problem is "solved" with only your experiences to back it up really isn't a good idea. New forum members can see this and go, "Hey, I should try this on my floating axie", and at this point it isn't known how effective this method is, which means that they could be doing this and stressing their axolotl with no benefit.
I will be totally honest, I want you to be right on this, as this is a much easier and simpler solution, however you just do not have enough proof. Please do not take this offensively. I think it is great that people are trying to find new ways to cure their animals with minimal stress etc, but it just hasn't been tested enough

I have never heard of such 100% water changes needed? Keeping current out of water ( weather it be by spraybar, sponge, or diffusion ) does not take away from the filters efficiency ( in fact, adding a sponge to the output of a filter may actually cultivate more beneficial bacteria ). Water changes are needed, of course, but unless I missed something somewhere 100% water changes aren't ever needed ( 10-20% water changes every 1-2 weeks is recommended by a trustable source - if tank is cycled and established ).

Just out of curiosity did you come up with the floating cure idea in the first place?

Happy new year to you too, Overmind

EDIT: Yes, that is the biggest problems with online forums ( in my opinion ), you can't tell anyone's tone.

Bellabelloo · Jan 4, 2015

I am closing this thread.

Anyone posting on the forum should take care on how their comments may come across. Some of the responses are in my opinion rather aggressively written.

Floating axolotl problem solved

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