Illness/Sickness: Lethargic and on week 3 of not eating

Hey,

You might have seen me post about three weeks ago. I had rescued an older axolotl from a local pet store. She was in extremely poor conditions and had a bad fugal infection. After about a week and a half of salt and tea baths, she started to physically look a lot better.

Well, starting around mid-week 2, she started to act extremely lethargic. Now I understand that axolotl aren't very active, but she will sit in her cave 24-48 hours without moving. She also has yet to eat, and the pet store was unreliable in knowing when she last ate either. I've tried bloodworms, earthworms, brine shrimp, pellets. I rinse them, tried garlic powder, tried different methods of feeding her and nothing seems to work.

Unfortunately, I'm unsure what to do at this point. I was extremely hopeful about her getting better but that is all starting to fade. Water parameters are perfect, I test twice a day. She came in with another axolotl, do they get depressed? I've read that they aren't social creatures, but I have also read a lot of people that think that's not true and that they ARE social.

I just lost one my my Axolotls due to a bad injury, but I think she would have made it if she had been in good condition - she hadn't been eating well for a longer time and the last period she wouldn't eat at all.
Axolotls are supposed to be able to go a long time without food and still be okay and healthy, but I still think that if they don't eat, the body weakens and their ability to fight disease or recover from injuries/bad conditions, decreases rapidly the longer they go without food since the body needs energy to recuperate...

I can't give advice to how to get her to eat since I failed with that bit myself, but someone recommended to try scallops in another thread. My Axies have liked clams at occasional times.

I think that if she has lived in poor conditions and been in bad shape, it can take a while for them to recover and refusing food is common in all species when they aren't well. I've had to force feed sickly cats and kittens at many occasions through the years of breeding.

There is a guide in this forum part, for how to force feed Axies, but I can't say as to when it would be proper to take this action, I'm sure someone else can advise you on this.

"Depression" in animals can be due to a lot of things and can show behaviour of many different types, not just the kind we associate with "human depression". "Depressed" animals can be lethargic or apathetic, hide, refuse food/water, show signs of stress or nervous, repetitive and compulsive behaviour, self destructive actions like nibbling/chewing/licking/scratching/feather picking/etc. themselves to a point where they cause severe injuries, show agression or erratic fear and so on.


A suggestion is to post pictures of the Axie in this thread, that might give the ones with a lot of experience of the problem, some kind of clue to her condition in general.
Also, that you describe how her shape was when you got her and how it's improved,
as well as describe the conditions and water parameters in the tank.
(Even if they are perfect in your opinion, there could be some small clue that you haven't thought about, but someone else might catch up on.)

I hope she'll be fine

That's why I'm worrying her lack of eating is going to stop any hopes of getting better that we have. ;/

I'm used to force feeding kittens, I've done a lot of fostering, but force feeding her is something I want to leave for when it's unavoidable. She seems a lot more fragile, I guess.

The first two images are the first day we got her. The third is from a week and a half ago. The last three are from over the weekend when she came out for a couple hours.

Temperature has been between 63-65F
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
PH: 6.5

using the API Freshwater Master Test Kit.

Was all of that fungus??? Omg... I have never seen anything like it - looks like she was covered in powdered sugar The difference in just that short time is remarkable...

To me she looks like she's in fairly good shape when it comes to weight, at least. Looks sturdy.

Perhaps she could have some kind of internal parasites? Wouldn't be surprising if she lived in a place where they let her get to that stage of fungal infestation... A wonder that she has maintained that physical body and wasn't underfed as well...

Do you know what food they used to give her in the store? That might work perhaps.
Many animals that have eaten one sided diet all their lives are very hard to get over to other types of food. Even if she got something that wasn't optimal, at least it maybe could get some food into her system. If you don't know - ask them - might work to try what they've given her.

Perhaps she might be stressed out over the sudden move - if she's been in those conditions for a long time and then suddenly moves to a completely new habitat and conditions, maybe she needs some time to "land"?

It might be very possible that this behaviour is a result of long term neglect - whether it's from wrong food, living conditions or parasites/the fungus/other kind of health problem.
Even if everything in her environment is good now - it might still be a shock to her and the problems perhaps pop up stronger now when in a stressful situation.

I guess the most important thing is to keep everything in her environment at ideal conditions and keep trying to get her to eat.
You could try just about anything that people give to Axies - just to encourage her appetite. Personally I don't feed meat from terrestrial animals, nor ocean dwelling fish/crustaceans/shellfish (except at very rare occasions, as a treat) but you could try pieces of clams/mussels/scallops, shrimp, white fish, heart, liver, live blood worms or something like that, if you can get a hold of it. I wouldn't give any of those "unnatural" things as a regular part of the diet, but as enticement.
Sometimes live food triggers the eating instincts of an animal that's on a hunger strike.

Is the tank cycle new? Have you tested for metals and such as well? GH?

I found a thread for you with some tips that might come in handy - http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...scussion/78333-silly-axolotls-not-eating.html

Since your water parameters are all at 0 it seems your tank is not cycled.

During cycling Ammonia is produced by your Axolotls waste and decomposing food, this is then broken down by a nitrogen fixing bacteria into Nitrites, and then broken down into NitrAtes. Ammonia and Nitrites are lethal so your tank needs to establish colony's of this nitrogen fixing bacteria which will breakdown your Ammonia and Nitrites into less harmful NitrAtes. The beneficial bacteria acts as a 'biofilter' keeping your water safe, all you have to do is weekly water changes of 20-30% to keep the NitrAtes down. So a cycled tank should show readings of 0 Ammonia, 0 Nitrites, and around 20-40PPM of NirAtes. vYour PH is fine.

You might want to try keeping your Axolotl is a separate container for now, in cool dechlorinated water. Change the water 100% everyday so Ammonia Nitrites and NirAtes do not build up. Keeping your Axolotl like this will make it much easier to monitor and feed until your are confident she is healthy and eating.

You will want to address your main tanks water quality and decide whether your going to perform a 'fish-less cycle' or not.

Read these links on water quality and cycling:
Caudata Culture Articles - Cycling
Caudata Culture Articles - Water Quality

I'm unsure about an internal parasite. I'm attempting to find a local vet that I could take her to today, but it's fairly early still.

The pet store we got her at said that they "think" she was eating bloodworms because that's what they normally feed the axolotls they get. They have not tempted her.

I have not tested for metals. I'll have to look into that.

The main tank is on week three and a half of existing. We started it up a few nights before getting her (I didn't have any intention of getting one that soon, we were supposed to be getting our first axie the second Saturday of December.) We are doing a fishless cycling process but transplanted plants from a pre-existing tank into there as well as the filter. With the time already elapsed and the plants/filter from an existing tank, I'm not sure how much longer it is going to need to cycle. :/ She was out in the "quarantine" container for about 4-5 days, seemed like she was getting better, and went right back to square one.

I don't know if it needs to be noted. While they also don't know her age, she is about 9-9.5 inches long. Which could be part of why she's been so durable. She has looked to have lost 0 weight since we got her.

If your doing a fish-less cycle have you been providing a source of ammonia? Looks like your doing a 'fish-in' cycle since your Axolotl is in the tank.

You will know how far along the cycling process is based upon the results you get from testing. Follow this guide that I posted before, follow it carefully: Caudata Culture Articles - Cycling

Keep your Axolotl in a separate container for now, in cool dechlorinated water in a shaded area to avoid bright lights. Change the water 100% everyday or the water will build up ammonia which will stop healing and cause more issues. This will make it much easier to feed until your are confident she is eating and healthy.

Fyi dechlorinator neutralizes metal toxins, so there shouldn't be any need to test for them.

Not all dechlorinators bind metals. There are a bunch of them that don't.

Also - the plants put in the tank - if they have been fertilized, they might contain copper since it's a common compound in many (most) fertilizers. When I move plants into my Axie tank, from a tank that has had fertilizer in them, I put the plants in slightly overdosed dechlorinated water for at least a day.
The dechlorinated water put in the tank with water changes only do their job at that precise moment - they can't safe guard against toxins that are added between water changes -
so if, for example, heavily fertilized plants are put in a smallish aquarium right after a water change - they will release copper and other stuff that is potentially harmful for the Axie even for a short while, and it will soak in them until next water change. And at that change - if the amount of dechlorinator isn't sufficient to treat the entire amount of water - the copper (or whatever the toxin is), will remain in the tank.
If moving roots from an aquarium in which I've used fertilizer - I let it soak in over dosed dechlorinated water for several days, until I'm sure that they are well saturated.
(But I try to avoid ever moving roots or other stuff that can be full of fertilizer residue, into the Axie tank.)

The earthworms - if they are not farmed, but digged up from a garden - they can contain huge amounts of metals (and other toxins) from pesticides and fertilizers.

Why I asked about the GH - it's not really anything that in any way will harm your Axolotl if your GH is low, just that they prefer harder water - but GH and KH could value greatly between the parameters in the store's tanks and your own tank. Not dangerous - but a huge difference can cause a stress reaction. And stressed out animals are reluctant to eat until they settle in their new environment.
The possible vast difference in your tank and the store's tank can really apply for all kinds of parameters, of which most can be stressful when suddenly changed.

IMO, your pH is on the low side - in the bottom range of comfortable environment for Axolotls. They prefer slightly basic water and yours is slightly acidic. Also - a low pH correlates with KH, GH, ammonia and other things and too low/too high values of one - can affect the levels of another. Also - copper becomes much more toxic in low pH - so if there is any copper residue in plants or filter - this can be a potentially high risk.
(Low pH in a newly started tank can be bad since the nitrifying bacteria can die off/stop functioning. That goes for values below approximately 6,4 but the pH can be affected by the KH and GH, as I said, so fluctuation is possible, especially in a cycling tank.)

So I think you should always test broadly and often when cycling, as well as check the metals and other stuff, every now and then in the long run as well, just to be sure.

For example - today I took broad spectrum tests and ended up scratching my head about the very high iron levels and phosphate levels in several of the tanks. No wonder I've had algae problems lately. But usually these values correlate with dirty tanks with a lot of waste scattered - but the nitrification values are perfect.
I also noted a dip in pH in one tank - so I'm gonna go easy on Catappa leaves in that one.
None of the water tests are completely unnecessary - they all have their importance since the water balance is a fine tuned thing with all the different components interacting.
But of course some are more important than others Just that they can affect each other - so something that's not all that significant - might affect the values of something that IS.



I was thinking about the filter. Is it strong? Axolotls don't like strong water flow.
For my Axolotls, I have a filter that's slightly below capacity for their tank and place the flow on the water surface and direct it towards a corner, plus I have a small piece of large pored filter media attached over the outflow. This creates a slight and nice flow that doesn't stress the Axies.


I'm trying to think about other things that might be a potential issue but I can't, really.