Who has teeth?? and what is a gentle "warning bite"?

Well last night was quite the night, my Taricha and my dumb c.o. had a little sqabble. The cynops tried to steal food out of my granulosas mouth and Rambo(thats my Tarichas name) decided that he was not going to take it and dropped the food somehow and grabbed Ducky's(c.o) arm and flung him around for a bit. It was like 3 in the morning and I was grad I was still awake, cause I had to like, tap my ganuosa and pull them apart, which I was really scared to do, becacuse I know he doen't have much in the realm of teeth, but he can grip. I wasn't sure if I would accidently pull the guys arm off by pulling away.

I think both are fine, Ducky ran off for a while and pouted...

So does the T.granulosa have teeth? what about the chinese fire belly? I thought they had quite small nubblings or somthing, but I don't have a book right now that talks about that. Are the tigers the only ones with real teeth??

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Jeff Altenburg wrote on Tuesday, 21 December, 2004 - 10:54 :</font>

"actually, I have had the rough skin for over 5 months, and i put the 2 juvenile CFBs in 6 weeks ago after 2 weeks of isolation. I have a really good filtration system, and I really think they all will be fine as long as I keep everything nice and clean, despite the many horror stories I have heard."<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>

Jeff, first let me repeat my advice from a few weeks ago to separate the two species you have acquired, especially now that "Rambo" is flinging around "Ducky." That sounds bad to me!

Salamanders have teeth, which they use for capturing and holding their prey. Having said this, it is entirely possible for your Taricha to rip off the arm of your Cynops.

BTW, this thread belongs in the Newt Help section, and I will be moving this there at the end of the week.

(Message edited by apples on January 17, 2005)

And for what is is worth, as far as I know amphibians do not engage in gentle warning or "pressure" bites. When they bite one another on purpose it is with the intent to damage (this is well supported in the literature). In your case, this was not a pressure bite as the smaller newt was bitten as a potential food item.

Ed

it cannot be understated jeff-keeping mixed species together can be fatal-its not just the toxin issue (which i dont believe can be solved by filtration), its also the aggression they have towards other species or even in some cases with each other, in captivity these animals are kept in unnatural concentrations (outside of breeding season)-water quality isnt the reason they stay in lower concentrations in the wild.

all newts/sals have teeth, but size of teeth isnt the issue-many can exert a higher limb/flesh shearing capacity by just clamping on to another and spinning like an alligator till the flesh gives way -or the limb pops off (or is de-sleaved, meaning the flesh is pulled off the bone)

it is worth noting that though we like to give human traits and feeling to our animals, newts arent given to such things as 'pouting', the orientalis ran away and hid, because the other made him fear more damage, in captive conditions they have less to fear and are less likely to be territorial due to the abundance of food offered on a regular basis-but this doesnt mean they will not fight, or just mistake anothers limb for a food item.

it is not just random advice from 'do gooders' that causes us to repeat-ad nauseum-the advice of not mixing species. many of us-before having access to such things as the internet- have kept species in such conditions and ended up with dead newts as a result. sometimes they can go years w/o issues then all the sudden 'snap', i personally have had 2 pachytritons kill each other, i also had pachys bite legs off of tiger salamanders. some displays in zoos have mixed species exhibits and give the impression of 'harmony'-they do have as much harmony as in the wild and will occasionally eat each other. i asked a zoo keeper about the displays and he says they just replace the missing animals when this happens. most exhibits, however, put species together that are from similar areas and might interact and have avoidance mechanisms adapted for those species-your 2 species however are from a globe apart and not likely to have such behaviour established for dealing with each other.

you can believe they are fine if you so wish-but you must realize that your belief is just that, a belief, supported with data modified to fit it. you can do as you see fit-but do so with full knowledge of potential consequences.

p.s. tigers dont have sharp teeth - i would let one bite me easily, dicamptadons have teeth sharp enough to easily draw blood-i can speak from expierence here.

I know, you guys are right... There is more than enough information to back up seperation, I just was basically waiting for something to happen like this, I never feed them without careful observation. I just think that most incidents can be avoided with carefull feeding(tweezers), as feeding has been the only situation that causes the Taricha to strike out. I guess I will seperate them, dispite the fact I feel bad about having the Taricha all alone, they really act social, sleep together and so forth, or stay seperate, with the execption of feeding.

But- I do know for a fact that Ambystoma tigrinumdo have pretty sharp teeth, especially bigger adults, I know a guy who had 3 or 4 open wounds from his, which was 15 or so inches. Again that individual only became snippy during feeding. Pin-pin sorry for posting in the wrong area again. I hardly ever get response in the taricha fourum. =-(

(Message edited by newtsrfun on January 17, 2005)

(Message edited by newtsrfun on January 17, 2005)

snip "in zoos have mixed species exhibits and give the impression of 'harmony'-they do have as much harmony as in the wild and will occasionally eat each other. i asked a zoo keeper about the displays and he says they just replace the missing animals when this happens. most exhibits, however, "

Hi Paris,
I'm not sure what Zoo that this occurs at, but I can speak from experience that this would not be tolerated where I work.
That said, if a lot of care and consideration are used multispecies enclosures are not only possible but can be stable for the life of the animals. The problem that many people make with multispecies and caudates, is that they mix species that overlapping habitat/niche requirements and the animals end up in compitition.
If they had chosen say Central Newts ( N. v. louisianensis) and squirrel tree frogs (H. squirrella) then there woukd not have been a problem (except for having to clean frog poop off the glass all of the time). Often multispecies enclosures are not well planned and involve animals that will compete for habitat.

Ed

actually ed-it wasnt a zoo, it was the baltimore aquarium guy, one that i met at IAD, or on a IAD trip, but he told me that when things like that happen they just replace them-he made it sound sort of common place.
my local zoo however had no clue (cheyanne mtn zoo) and kept axies, crayfish and cynops orientalis all together in about a 40 g set up-the 'keeper' in that area (not sure if shes still there -this was 5 years ago) said she couldnt understand why the axies kept getting long gashes/cuts on them.....this wanst even an attempted balanced set up.

I remember admiring a huge exhibit at the Chattanooga aquarium some years back. The exhibit was a recreation of a southern US swamp habitat and contained American alligators, various species of turtles (many of them quite small), fish, and birds. Again it has been a while but it seems that there may have been anoles and skinks in there as well. I asked one of the keepers what kept the larger predators from eating the smaller ones and he responded "nothing". He then added "well we feed them all very well but losses happen at times". I have never been in the zoo business but I am surprised that the AZA would allow such practices.
Chip

This is not an AZA issue as it deals with the management of the collections by the various curators or other staff. There are some Zoos that will support that sort of issue. I am always curious to see which Zoos/Aquaria it can occur at as this would be unacceptable at Philly these days.

Ed