Don Hamper Busted

Hey, everyone, check out this article about Ohio Reptile Dealer Don Hamper busted for some illegal reptile trading done over the past few years... nothing specific on caudates, but still may of been involved and is still of interest to anyone involved in the herp trade. Here's the link.

http://p219.ezboard.com/fmoreliaviridisfrm1.showMessage?topicID=2015.topic

I'm rather disappointed by the relatively small penalty he received, especially since he seems to have made a rather large profit, at the expense of turtles that have a very difficult time recovering.

yeah, I was disappointed to see that they almost made him look like a good guy by him donating extra funds to the state wildlife agency, I mean great... but 70,000 dollars in endangered wild-life... and he is out 15,000 dollars max? Thats B.S.... oh this crazy world we live in.

It seems like you are defending this Hamper character, when he was clearly extracting rare animals from the wild in order to make a buck. He made a substantial amount of money from it, and now all he has to do is sit in jail for a year and loose under a third of what he made in order to compensate for it.

If one is allowed to stretch the rules and this is accepted by the example setting 'moderators' what does that say to the society as a whole? To me it sounds like one can bend and twist the rules to justify why they are going out on trips to collect "lifers"

Danny, where in the world did that come from? That makes no sense given the text above, as Mike was certainly not accepting anything.

There's some interesting things to consider here, in my opinion. A 1-year sentence for someone who stole 70,000 worth of merchandise would be an extremely light sentence. Likewise for someone who made the same profit off of selling drugs. But I agree with Michael in part that it is not exactly a light sentence when it comes to illegal animal cases...most people get off with far less. I guess that just goes to show how weird our society's priorities are and how unimportant the powers that be consider animal/environmental crimes in comparison to theft or drugs.

I am certain that NO ONE was defending Hamper in any way.

Just for the sake of discussion, let me give two examples of "rule-stretching".

1. A person in California produces captive-bred Taricha. It is illegal to ship this species out of California. Would it be "wrong" to give away some of those CB offspring and ship them out from CA?

2. In order to exchange genetic material, people in Europe and the US exchange newt eggs for common captive bred species. Postal regulations prohibit any shipping of live material, even eggs. Is it wrong to do it?

I suspect that the "rule-stretching" Mike was referring to is these sorts of things. Things that are very clearly not harming any wild animals, and clearly have no profit-motive.

Nate, Ive never met this Hamper character, and I do feel that the selling of illegal animals is a criminal act. As for his sentence, yes its way to light, and what he has to repay compared to the profit he made is nothing. Mike clearly said that he defends some stretching of the rules for those members of this forum who choose to do so. That just opens up pandoras box. So stretching the rules is 'acceptable' to what extent? When its under $70,000?? If you give someone an inch more than likely they will run a mile with it. If an act is illegal its illegal, regardless of how far you 'stretch' the rules to try and justify what you are doing. If you are willing to bend the rules and take CB animals out of the state then when will it stop? I know everyone thinks their intentions are noble, but promoting illegal actions and rule bending should not be posted in any community.

Danny, I think you simply misinterpreted what Mike meant overall. He was simply putting the comparison of what Hamper did with what some people here might do in perspective. I'm sure that once he sees this, he'll clarify at length. What has been posted here looks perfectly fine to me.

As for what should or should not be posted, people are free here (including moderators) to post opinions on rule bending, illegal activities, or just about anything else for that matter at their discretion. For our part, we scrutinize the adverts here very carefully. You will not see adverts of blatantly illegal animals offered here.

(Message edited by nate on February 21, 2005)

Nate, Im afraid of someone taking the advice that bending the rules for whatever reason is ok if you are setting up a breeding group etc, and only getting in trouble with the authorities. I don't want to read a post on here about someone who's in major trouble after sending eggs/larvae etc. Only to be asked why they did it and to find out that they learned about here on caudata.org There are personal risks that come along with such actions, I bet that Hamper didn't think he'd get caught, and now he's in a world of trouble. Talking about illegal activities on a public site no matter how noble the cause is IMO should be kept quiet, between the parties involved. I didn't mean for my post to be a personal attack and apologise if it came across that way. Just people should know the risks involved when they do such things.

Danny, does bending the rules include the use of a avatar that is clearly a knockoff of a copy righted scene from one of the Dragon Ball series?

With the Hamper bust and sentence, this is significantly more than the results of the prosecutions I have been peripherally part of over the last 15 as a Zoo employee who had to identify and bag-up various confiscated animals.
The vast majority of them (even those that were violations of the Lacy Act) simply involved a fine.

When compared to the amount of money involved, this seems like a small fine, when compared to the usual sentences for this type of offense, its a big step forward.

Ed

(Message edited by Ed on February 22, 2005)

"As for what should or should not be posted, people are free here (including moderators) to post opinions on rule bending, illegal activities, or just about anything else for that matter at their discretion."

I recently had a post deleted when I told a forum member that eggs could not be shipped from the US to the UK, and that they would be stopped by customs unless they were labelled as something else.

As for Hamper, I think a more appropriate punishment would be full repayment of the money he made off of endangered species (even if it was only the comparitively modest 30000 estimate), which in turn could be redistributed to conservation programs. I'm just glad that he's now forbidden from handling any reptiles or amphibians.

I think the light sentence may be attributed to the fact that it was not a violent crime, and he's not considered a danger to society.

Which was a reason given in one of the cases I am aware of (in the case I rememeber the judge said, why are you wasting my time with this when I have drug dealers and murderers waiting on the docket).

Ed

I am surprised that Hamper actually rec'd a one year jail sentence (and will he really serve this time?). This is stiff in regards to illegal animal activities - whether it be selling protected, endangered species, or pure neglect of an animal whereby they starve to death. (That fine is usually 500 - 1000 bucks w/no jail time, go figure.)

Awareness in animal cruelty (which Hampers case is only a part of), is only becoming a real concern in the world as of lately. Fifty to hundred years ago, animals, of all kinds, were just that "animals". Here to serve mankind, whether it be food, drafting, or just for amusement. With the world's growing population, grows the people w/pets. Pet owner's/animal enthusiasts experience a different reality - they LOVE animals - even to the point of giving them human characteristics (anthropomorphism). (Which can be cruel in my opinion.)

As far as looking at laws (of any kind) in black and white, well you just wouldn't break them. There are gray areas, some laws are enacted (not most, but some) purely out of fear, lack of knowledge. For ex. banning certain breeds of dogs. It is easier to enact a law to ban them then it is to deal with the situation with discretion (probably less expensive too). So responsible, knowledgeable people are "punished" for those that are not responsible, caring, etc. The same could be applied to the amphibian trade. And on, and on, and on. I'm probably not making any sense, it is hard to have a "conversation" via type.

(Message edited by Salmonella on February 22, 2005)

Ed! I didnt know you are an avid anime fan! Thats great, well Dragon Ball Z isnt my favourite, its actually my second most favourite. The best of them all is actually Neon Genesis Evangelion!, Email me sometime, we might have more in common than you think

Not as big a fan as I wish as I usually cannot stay up late enough to catch the new shows (having to get up at 5:30 AM as well as getting old).
I just don't have the time as I'm usually spending too much time working with the animals and writing.

Ed

Aw man, I just had a good rant written out and a computer fart lost it.

Ok, my 2 cents in here... somewhat compressed from my original dissertation. This digresses from the initial thread, but addresses some of the comments.

A few comments above tip-toed around condoning rule stretching or breaking.

For the record: I wholeheartedly DO condone breaking rules

Many existing laws are outdated, poorly enforced, or, for lack of a better description stupid. Further, many basically good laws are "lost" through failure to interpret law intent from law letter.

"Bad" laws can be changed through concerted effort of groups, but it's not worth my time to lobby for change of every minutiae of law that is poorly applied. Also, civil disobedience is a larger and more noble process than needs to be discussed here. I am talking about every-day things I do that contravene written laws, but which I do not believe violate society's intentions

I jaywalk

I run red lights (after stopping and looking) at 3am when no one is around

I have changed a light switch in my house (without direct supervision of a certified electrician)

I have shipped small #'s of CB ampib eggs, without profit

I have payed cash for goods and services from private individuals, thus evading our federal Goods and Services tax (ex: I gave my 9yr old neighbor $5 to shovel the sidewalk)

<<<font color="ff0000">Edited>></font>

I guess my point here was not turn this into a confessional, but to suggest that to NOT EVER bend a rule (or worse: to limit public discussion of same) is at least unnecessary, likely preposterous, and at worst, a threat to our very freedom and the viability of our society. *giggle*

Thanks,
Keegan

PS: Comments welcome. Please limit criticism to a reasonable scope of what I've addressed. I have no interest in entertaining wild accusations of me of standing up for someone who pocketed 70grand dealing illegal wildlife.

(Message edited by mike_g on February 27, 2005)

You break "laws" by not putting your seat belt on before you start you car. You break the seal on a bottle of rum in the backseat and you could be arrested for DUI. Don't get rightous Danny, Keegan sumed it up pretty good, as did everyone else, my point is that the punishment should fit the crime(starve a newt, get starved yourself) and we all do things like not make a full stop at a stop sign. My taricha would died a long time ago if I had not used money/old video games to get his bad owner to give him to me instead of him flushing him, which technically may have not even been illeagle. Think about that.

Evangelion is pretty sweet. I love Oska, she reminds me of one of my cats.

(Message edited by newtsrfun on February 27, 2005)