Spell check

Does the spell check for Caudata.org rely on British spellings or American spellings? Or is it English?



i've noticed that the word "behavior" caused problems.

should I have said behaviour? wait... that's highlighted as a spelling error too? maybe that's one of them thar complicated and technical words that spell check don't know. I once used the word "creationist" in a paper I was writing for a course and the MS Word spell check suggested "cretin". I also regularly have it suggest "geisha" for "Gekko".

That's not even close. Maybe spell check has its own political agenda. I just know Bill Gates is laughing in a hot tub somewhere with a couple Gekkos by his side.

greg

When won rights , won must reed thee post. Bill Gates or know, their is knot a program in the whirled that can fallow the human mined.

Just checking, all the words in this one got past clean. Frankly I hate grammar checks anyway.
It does seem like behavior and gekko ought to be added to the dictionary.

behavior
behaviour
gecko

All added to the dictionary. Isn't modern technology wonderful.

Ok, I'm probably the only one here who is suffering from this particular deficit but you know what would be even cooler than spell check?
A reference list of the phonetic pronunciation of the names of these little beasts we are all so fond of, as well as some of the words used to describe their development (or lack of it). I would never dream of trying to use some of the words I've learned on this sight in an actual conversation. I'm aware that most of you are members of the scientific community. Anyone willing to tutor me?

Well...this is a bit of a problem. Latin, as you know, is a dead language and so the pronunciation of many of these names is totally arbitrary. With some names, a particular pronunciation is more accepted and widespread, but there's no way to prove one way or another that it is the correct way to pronounce it.

Uh huh...
First I bought one harmless little axolotl. Then I had a couple more. Then I had books on axolotls and then I had books on salamanders. Then of course I had books on amphibians which of course led to biology texts, chemistry texts, and a medical dictionary to help me understand all my other books.
Of course this is aside from the books on photography, aquarium design, etc. etc.
So now I need study Latin.
It would be ever so much easier if some kind soul could just tell me where they put the emphasis in words such as Batrachoseps and Rhyacotritonidae.
Of course given the sense of humor that is so pervasive on this particular forum I might be safer with the Latin texts. Have mercy

With regard to what Nate said, it is true to say that when it comes to ancient Latin no one knows how it was pronounced. However, Latin is not truly dead. The Catholic Church preserved it for a long time, and even to this day it is used for formal things. I would wager their pronunciation has deviated from the original. Most international Latin scholars tend to lean heavily on Italian when it comes to trying to pronounce Latin. I still remember the audio tapes I listened to as a teenager in Latin class saying "Caecilius est in villa" - Caecilius is in the house.

When I graduated from my University with my undergraduate degree, the ceremony was conducted in Latin (that was in Trinity College Dublin, Ireland). Few Universities do that now. Perhaps Oxford, Cambridge and Trinity College Dublin may be the last, being the oldest of the Universities here-abouts.

What Nate didn't mention is that a large proportion of scientific names are derived from Greek, not Latin. I therefore feel it is incorrect to refer to scientific names as Latin names. Modern Greek is not the same as ancient Greek, but it's closer to ancient Greek than Italian is to Latin.

A note on scientific name presentation. For those of you who don't know, scientific names should be written in italics (or if not possible, such as in hand writing, <u>underlined</u>). The first name for any given species is the Genus name (the closely related group of animals to which this animal belongs) and the second name is the species name. The Genus name is always written with the first letter capitalised and the species name is always written with the first letter in lower case. To do otherwise is incorrect and sadly, this is often happens even in newspapers and other authorities who should know better. Thus, for our own species, the Human Being, Homo sapiens is correct, whilst Homo sapiens, Homo sapiens, homo sapiens and Homo Sapiens, are not.

A lot of scientific names are also based on names of places and people and make little sense really. Tylototriton shanjing is one that comes to mind - whoever made up the species name "shanjing" wasn't singing from the conventional hymn sheet, because that's from Mandarin. The more flowery interpretation of it is "Mountain Spirit" or "Mountain Devil" but as far as I'm aware it's a bit more plain in meaning to Mandarin speakers. Sticking with that genus, we have Tylototriton kweichowensis, which is a more conventional scientific name: the Kweichow (Guizhou) province of China is where this newt is mostly found and "ensis" is from the Latin meaning "coming from", so Tylototriton kweichowensis is the "Tylototriton that comes from Kweichow". That was an easy one.

"Tyloto" is derived from the Greek word "Tylos" for the knob of a club, hence the occasional naming of Tylototriton newts as knobby newts.

Triton is from Greek too and Triton was actually the son of Neptune, the Ancient Greek God of the sea (aka Poseidon). It also happens to be the French word for newt but that has its origin in the Greek word too. "Triton" shows up frequently in scientific names for newts as you're no doubt aware. Triton was a Merman - tail of a dolphin, torso of a human and he had the power to calm or swell the seas with his conch horn.

OK, to the names you mentioned. Pronounce what comes after the "=" as you would normal English.

Batrachoseps = Bat-rack-oe-sepps
Rhyacotritonidae = Rye-ack-oe-trite-on-id-ee (the "ee" part is pronounced by some as "aye" - I'm an ee person).

"Batrachoseps" comes from the Greek word for Frog, Batrachus (and as our French patrons might tell you, les Batrachiens sont (ou étaient?) les Amphibiens en Francais - the "Batrachiens" are (or were?) the Amphibians in French). Actually, Batriachian is an English derivation of the same word. The "seps" part may come from a Latin interpretation for the Arabic word for a small snake that was very deadly, the "Seps".

Rhyacotriton comes from the Greek word for stream, "Rhyakos" and Triton, in to which we already went.

Very little Latin in those two .

Sara, you mentioned early development and here's a word that comes to mind:

Larva = larva in english ;P.
The plural is larvae (sounds like larv-ee).

If you can think of any more I will see what I can do . Fire the names at me and I'll see if I can tell you what they're derived from as well.

John, EXTREMELY well written, only human beings are now being considered a subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens. but other than that, you've done Quite well.

maybe if i'm feeling optimistic one of these days, i'll go through the caresheets and give you the pronunciation of the scientific names.

also: latin is a very dead language. by dead langauge, they mean that its no longer used in everyday conversation and therefore does not change daily. well known example: the meaning of the word "fag" has changed quite a bit in its history. also "cool". by dead, it just means that the meaning of the words doesnt change any more, that that its no longer spoken. Which is why its used now as the 'main' language of science. If i were to say something about a firebelly salamander, you wouldnt know which one, because there are so many species that people refer to as firebellies. but if i were to say something about a SPECIFIC newt, Cynops orientalis, you'd know just which one i meant. and its universal. if i said it to Tim who lives in Japan, or you who lives in the UK, or my biology professor who lives in the US, it would mean exactly the same thing.

John, I printed off your last post and stuck it in my reference notes! While I'm willing to accept that a well educated person might know much of that off the top of their head, I'm sincerely hoping that at some point you actually had to look up the Mandarin
While we are exposing my ignorance...
How do you pronounce fimbriae and paedomorphic. Also are fimbriae the fleshy or feathery part of the gill and if they are the fleshy part then what are rami? (I'm assuming rami is pronounced rah-mee but if I'm mistaken I'm counting on folks to let me know) Thanks.

Kaysie - regarding species and subspecies, a subspecies is still part of a species - a car is a car, whether or not it's blue or red .

As someone who studied Latin for six years, I can reliably inform you that Latin is not totally dead, which I think I made clear in my previous post. New words are added to it all the time, otherwise it couldn't be used to refer to current issues and indeed it is. Here in Europe there is even a Latin radio station. It is only dead in so far as there are no "native speakers" of it. And Latin is not the language of science - as should be apparent from my previous post, Greek is also heavily used to form species names. For example, Rhyacotriton is not a Latin name. It's easy for people who have no knowledge of those two languages to simply say in their ignorance that scientific names are Latin names.

Sara: I don't know Mandarin, but I talked to some Chinese people about it over a year ago.

Fimbriae would sound something like fim-bree-ee (or to the "aye" school, fim-bree-aye).

Paedomorphic is peed-oe-morf-ik. Fimbriae are the filaments of the gills and the fleshy part is the rachis (rack-iss).

Great thread this one... here's my two cents with a bit of pedantry thrown in:

1) Your main concern Sara seems to be where to place the stress / emphasis in Latin names (i.e. on which syllable), as well as the phonetics / pronounciation involved.
Example:you want to know Batrachoseps = Bat-rack-oe-sepps, but also where do you place the "beat" of the word.... BAT-rack-oe-sepps? Bat-RACK-oe-sepps? Bat-rack-OE-sepps? Bat-rack-oe-SEPPS?
Although there may be some subjectivity here - see Nate's remarks - most people agree most of the time and your request could be met easily... I don't think I'd be popular if I suggested species databases be amended but surely writers of new care sheets (much needed!) could add this info. Other pet hobbyists do - often beginner's guides do tell you the pronounication of the animal's name, on page one.

2) It would be nice to see a FAQ about "Latin" names, explaining "Linnaean" classification, or even a link to one on the Net if anyone can help. Common prefixs and suffixes could be listed so people can decode them.

3) Isn't there often a beauty and a story to names when they are decoded instead of just given? (Even if it just boils down to a reference to a scientist or a region.)

4) Perhaps I have more time on my hands than sense but I'd love to see a family wallchart of caudates that scrolls across and down...

5) For the record, no-one knows for certain how ancient / classical Greek (from which we borrow so many "stems" of words) is pronounced. That information is lost forever.

6) Suggestions for further study Sara (hoping not to patronise)...
*A good, big English dictionary (American or English)which will break words down phonetically AND use a symbol or CAPS to tell you where the emphasis goes. OK, they won't list caudates, but it will make you sensitive to syllabic emphasis and to word stems (prefixes and suffixes).
You already know about "Paedomorphic" / "peed-oe-morf-ik" because you know paediatrician and you've heard of morphology and morphing...?
* A good dictionary of developmental biology if you haven't invested in one.
*Either think about a simple Teach-Yourself book or course in Latin, or start to list ancient word families when you come across them. Even just an hour a week will pay rich rewards. You'll become sensitive to the feel of words - when the "Latin" system borrows from other languages, whether it is Greek or Mandarin Chinese (e.g. you don't find many Js (just IAs) or KWs in CLASSICAL Latin!), and you can hunt for the explanation. It is fun and helpful - if you remember the bit of Greek scientists reach for when they want to describe a beak you'll know what a longirostris Salamander shares in common with Barry Manilow even before you see one!!!

Poetically yours,
Matthew

(Whoops - correction...
...I meant the bit of Latin scientists reach for. Got my rostrum - as Latin as longus - confused with my rhis (Greek for nose, as in rhinoplasty and rhinoceros).Sorry...)

John, Thankyou. I was teasing you a little about knowing the Mandarin. I wasn't joking about how much I appreciated the information in you post.

Matt, I didn't realize there were dictionaries devoted to developmental biology. An excellent suggestion! You are correct in that much of my concern does revolve around where to place the emphasis. In the case of paedomorphic and paediatrician, in my defense, the accepted spelling where I live is pediatrician. My vocabulary didn't include any words with a -pae-. Now it does..
I for one would be a big fan of caresheet authors who included this no doubt seemingly trivial piece of information, so your suggestion is popular with me.
There is no doubt that I would probably benefit greatly from a little latin. I would probably also enjoy it. I will put it on my rather daunting list of things I need to know more about. In the meantime, I appreciate the patience and assistance.

Incidentaly where DOES the emphasis go in Bat-rack-oe-sepps?

Hehe, just to further muddy up the water here, I have spoken with many researchers who work directly with Batrachoseps, including those who have described new species within the genus. Their pronunciation is invariably buh-TRAY'-co-seps or buh-TRACK'-o-seps. Not at all as John or Matt prescribe. So who is right? Nobody and everybody.

While it's true that latin in one form or another has remained in use we must also take into consideration the effects of time on pronunciation and accent. John and I speak the same language, but we pronounce many words quite differently. And to top that off, we both pronounce words quite differently from how they were originally pronounced several hundred years ago. People have their preferred pronunciations, and when pressed, they can come up with reasons why they feel their way is correct. This is the point I make (and many latin scholars have made) that by this time, it is arbitrary and there's no way to prove any pronunciations one way or the other.

I pronounce it "Bwah-ahah-aha" .

I'm feeling more ignorant but less stupid by the minute.