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alex
25th November 2004, 20:59
I have a very debated question to ask. Most people do not agree with wild catching any animals, but in retrospect many do. What is your opinion? I thik it is a neccessary practice to keep from inbreeding, but I think that WC individuals should not be sold as pets but rather as breeding stock. WC for the pet trade not only depletes wild populations, but sends possibly sick animals to the general public. Take Japanese Fire Belly newts or Fire Bellied Toads, you find them in any pet store. The problem is they are wild caught, and some poor child may buy them hoping for a new pet, and end up having it die because of stress or parasites. Well anyways, opinions please. Alex

kaysie
26th November 2004, 02:46
I dont think wild individuals should be caught en masse and sold for a profit. however, i do have myself long term captive animals, although i wasnt the one who caught them.

alex
26th November 2004, 03:23
I too have long term captive WC individuals. My biggest issue is that we sell WC individuals as pets to the general public. So what if the animals are more expensive, in the long run, the price really equals off.

jesper
26th November 2004, 09:25
Wow, you find japanese firebellies(Cynops pyrrhogaster) in any pet shop were you live?
I suppose you mean Cynops orientalis?

I suppose WC is ok as long a the population isn't threatened by collection (long-term and short-term). WC newts are adults, many people only wants adults as they are too lazy or too impatient ta raise frome eggs. But the one thing that upsets people about WC are the poor condition of the newts most of the time due to bad shipping conditions, ruthless collecting etc.
Once coming to the pet shop WC would probably be in much worse condition than CB. Given enough time I'm sure that many pet shops will have CB newts look like WC ones though....

uwe
26th November 2004, 09:54
I agree, that the commercial "harvesting" is the main problem of WC animals.
We should always try to breed our held animals, so the WC could be replaced by CB.

An other point: I keep salamanders pretty long now, but I habenīt had any problems with in breeding. This is also confirmed by other long-time breeders of salamanders. Has anyone, maybe Alex, an example for this. It may be true for frogs (see dendrobates), but to my knowledge there is not example and therefore excuse for WC animals in salamanders.

Uwe

jesper
26th November 2004, 12:14
Well, let's try to be realistic...
I hope that CB will overtake WC, but I don't see this happening. The majority of salamander keepers don't know anything about what they have they only want something colourful and lizardlike to put in their tanks. As long as there are no Cheap adult CB I think this discussion is moot really.

However within the ranks of serious keepers I can see CB replacing WC as these are prepared to pay for and put effort into raising eggs or small morphs. Even spreading CB within the community of serious breeders is not that easy. We're spread quite thin throughout the world. Of course in places as the USA and Germany it is easier since these countries contain more than just a couple of enthusiasts.
There is one pet shop regularly having unusual animals in Sweden(like T.verrucosus or T.marmoratus), no breeders that I am aware of.
Point is that it is easy to sit in the states or Germany pointing out the ease of finding CB.
It's impossible to find CB in Sweden unless you know breeders on an international level.

michael
26th November 2004, 15:16
Many of the Caudates in my collection are wild caught. It is simply the way the majority of Caudates are offered for sale in the U.S. I suppose the biggest threat to wild populations is habitat loss. This helps me rationalise keeping w.c. Most of my w.c. animals are part of my breeding projects.
The majority of dart frogs in my collection are c.b. I think their isn't much of an inbreeding problem in frogs. If you investigate what have been reported as inbreeding problems in Dendrobatids it often turns out to be husbandry problems. An example of this is spindly leg syndrome. Many breeders thought sls came in part from inbreeding. They found when they changed their husbandry techniques the frogs quit producing spindly legged offspring.
I'm not crazy about mass imports of w.c. animals but am anxious to jump on a rare purchase (e.g. w.c. Tylototriton). Because of the increase in legislation and arrests in the U.S. small imports of breeding stock have become difficult. I would not feel comfortable selling or swapping amphibians without the proper permits and licenses. The odd thing is the big importers are often "legal" while the hobbyist or small breeder is doing things"illegaly". Of course just because something is legal doesn't make it right.

edward
26th November 2004, 18:40
I suspect that there will always be some wc species in the trade to fill that cheap aquarium niche. Several species have been used in that way over the last 30 years or so, Taricha, Notopthalmus, Cynops pyrrogaster, Cynops orientalis are the ones that I can think of off the top of my head. Mass exploitation is a problem, however, in general small scale collection of species that are not locally restricted to one habitat is not a problem especially when compared to the effects of pollution and habitat degredation.

alex
26th November 2004, 21:22
Jesper, believe it or not, chains like Petsmart in my area carry C. Pyrrhogaster, or so they say. I've never bought one, but they always have a few.

uwe
26th November 2004, 21:38
I agree that a eal thread to amphibians are habitat destruction and over-collection. Small colection should not endanger a population, but you donīt know how many people take small collection.
Anyhow the breeding and exchange of this animals should allow to replace the wc animals. In dendrobates this is more or less the case in Germany.
I agree that the in breeding is not seen (as Michael says it was husbandry fault). So this is no excuse.
@Jesper: its probably right that you a far of north, but over a forum like Cadata you have the connection to breeders, which will send animals to you. If done properly and at the right time, without loss (or even stress).

Uwe

edward
26th November 2004, 22:50
Hi Alex,
In all of the petsmarts I have been inside of in three states, the labels all say Japanese Fire-bellied newts but the animals in the cages are always C. orientalis.

Ed

jesper
26th November 2004, 23:15
Indeed Uwe, I can get many CB species thanks to many generous friends I have aquired here!
That's just me though and I have spent A LOT of time here. Most swedish sal enthusiasts do not have the contacts http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/happy.gif I have.

mark
29th November 2004, 18:55
I agree with Kaysie. I don't think it is right that just anyone can get a pet of any sort. They should have to prove or something that they have enough experiance. I know I feel bad when I rescue a newt or more from a petstore, because I take them home to a luxurious home with just the perfect set up, and I know what I am doing, and I treat them right, but yet the next person might take one home, and his set-up will be even worse than the pet stores. Grrr ||||||||Venting|||||||

russ
30th November 2004, 13:15
A lot of species can tolerate small amounts of collecting, even species that appear to be uncommon. I say "appear" because most species stay fairly well concealed. I once went to a sight that harbored a protected "endangered" species and night walked it with only a few individuals being seen. I went out the next night during a heavy drizzle and saw literally hundreds out in the open. Of course they were protected due to their small range, which goes back to the comment about habitat protection being probably the most important management tool (for all herps).

You really have to use common sense. Most people who have spent some time in the field have an idea of how common a species is in their area. And for God's sake, put ground cover back the way you found it.

RUSS

john
3rd December 2004, 16:59
I find it ironic that here in Georgia its illegal to keep any native herp as a pet, while thousands of salamanders are sold as fish bait every year.

If anyone asks, I've got tanks full of fish bait....http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/angel.gif