Species mixing disaster...big time!

check this out....
http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/11093272.htm

Can you copy and past it Paris, I don't wanna sign up for another newspaper. lol
I'm sure everyone else would appreciate it too.

wow-wierd-i can access it through google but not the link.....here it is its from the mercury news
Posted on Wed, Mar. 09, 2005





Second shark dies in Monterey Aquarium great white attack

BRIAN SKOLOFF

Associated Press


A great white shark on display at the Monterey Bay Aquarium has killed two smaller tankmates in about three weeks, prompting critics to call for the animal's release.

One of the soupfin sharks died Feb. 23 after an attack by the great white. The second soupfin died Tuesday from injuries received in an attack a day earlier, said Randy Kochevar, a marine biologist at the aquarium.

The great white has been in captivity at the aquarium for nearly six months, longer than any other great white in the world, Kochevar said. The record had been 16 days.

The year-old shark came to the aquarium on Sept. 15 after a halibut fisherman accidentally netted her off the Orange County coast.

Aquarium officials believe the 88-pound, 5-foot-3-inch shark only attacked the smaller, slower moving animals as a reflex when it bumped the other sharks, not in a predatory rage.

The animal hasn't attacked anything else in the tank, including a variety of tuna, California barracuda, black sea turtles and scalloped hammerhead sharks.

Even so, the recent attacks are raising concerns among naturalists who say great whites aren't meant to be held captive.

"They really have huge travel migration routes. This type of animal typically travels 50 miles in a day," said Sean Van Sommeran, executive director of the Pelagic Shark Research Foundation in Santa Cruz.

Van Sommeran said the 1 million gallon tank where the shark lives "is really just a bucket ... His nose is raw from repeated contact with the barrier walls."

"This animal is injured and becoming agitated," Van Sommeran said of the attacks.

Kochevar countered that the animal is under constant medical supervision and is healthy.

He said the aquarium has had 700,000 visitors come see the shark display, and researchers are gathering data on its biology and behavior they say will help in conservation efforts for sharks in the wild.

"We are doing something here that nobody else has done ... And we have found that the very best way to inspire people and educate people is to put them face to face with the real thing," Kochevar said.

Mark Berman, associate director of the Earth Island Institute, a San Francisco-based nonprofit environmental advocacy group, said more can be achieved by studying the animals in the wild.

"Nothing can be done to save them in the wild by seeing them in a tank," said Berman, who acknowledged much of his area of expertise is in studying dolphins.

In contrast, Gregor Cailliet, a marine biologist at Moss Landing Marine Laboratories, said much can be learned by observing the great white in an aquarium environment. He said there is nothing unusual about the attacks on the soupfin sharks.

"Sharks attacks other sharks in the wild, too," Cailliet said. "The benefit of having this shark on display for public education and research far outweighs" setting it free.

Van Sommeran, who does not have a degree in marine biology but has been researching sharks since 1992, said simply: "Certain species are best left alone, otherwise they become like flowers in a vase that wilt over time. It's really self-indulgent."

Meanwhile, two other soupfin sharks have been removed from the great white's tank.

"It may simply come down to a species compatibility issue," Kochevar said.

Eventually, however, the great white will be released back into the wild, that is, if it doesn't die in captivity as have all the others.

Whether the animal can survive in nature remains a point of contention.

"White sharks are born without any parental care. She's already learned all the hunting skills she'll need to survive in the wild," Kochevar said.

Van Sommeran has a different take.

"We do have a couch potato here ... This animal's been more or less hand fed as a yearling every day."

I've seen this display. The great white is the smallest animal in the tank, and I'm surprised that it was the aggressor, not the victim (there were some vicious looking tuna there). There's even a sea turtle in the tank.

Granted, the tank is about the size of an entire house, but yikes, that is sad to hear.

That's really bad. I can understand where they're coming from in wanting to observe it in the aquarium, but they're not gonna learn a whole lot from it. The only way they're gonna be able to observe it's natural behavior is in the wild.

Even some of the "experts" have to learn a hard lesson about mixing. I know many people think they can do it safely, but the questions are why do it, and is it best for the animals involved.

With some shark species, there are territorial issues that can cause issues when animals are confined together. The signals that one species uses may not be read by another species prompting the attack.

I highly doubt that there are any problems releasing the great white as there aren't any "learned" skills such as those that you may see in primates or psittacines.

I have to disagree with you on the observation issues Joshua as this species is one that cannot be readily observed in the wild. The amount of information known about them is so little that even the growth rates on a captive diet are ground breaking information.

I do sort of take offense at your "expert" comment there. Multispecies exhibits can be easily done but it is often not simple task to choose the cage mates so that everything will live compatibly together. It is true that multispecies enclosures have a bad rap from people either placing animals together that will perform as a predator/prey scenario or one that will bully or injure the other, or from places treating the animals as disposable but it is also possible to set up multispecies enclosures where animals will live out a normal (if not longer) lifespan and reproduce in a multispecies enclosure.

Ed

That is and isn't a stab at you Ed, morally I don't see why anyone should be mixing species, I know it's done and yes some things can be mixed. Some things can be mixed with next to no risk like many aquatic turtles from roughly the same habitat, not all because some are very aggressive. But when you mix a predatory species with a prey species you're getting risky with both, especially if it's something like a snake and a wild caught dart frog. And yes animals are always at risk to die regardless of how you have them set up, everything has to die eventually, but when the animal is at our mercy, I feel we're obligated to provide it with the best possible care we can.

I know you're a very well known and respected keeper, and you will shoot anything I say down, because I can't provide all the references to back me up, and all you have to do is say "it's this way because I've done it", you're also a moderator so arguing with you is pointless, so if you take offense to this do not edit it yourself, have another moderator edit it instead. I don't belive in trusting just one persons word on anything, anyone can be wrong or off on something, just look at some of the older book on herps, you find so many things that didn't really work or that have changed in the last decade that the books need to be rewritten. With that said I don't wanna turn this thread into a mixing debate like the one we had on dendroboard.

Hi Joshua,

snip "That is and isn't a stab at you Ed" and snip " you're also a moderator so arguing with you is pointless" and snip " I don't wanna turn this thread into a mixing debate like the one we had on dendroboard."

Okay, you admit you are poking me with a stick, you say that arguing with me is pointless because I'm a moderator and then you say you don't want to get into a debate over it ala dendroboard.
Make up your mind. If you cannot substantiate your point of view then you should refrain from making statements about it particuarly when you are making the statement to rile a specific individual.

snip "But when you mix a predatory species with a prey species you're getting risky with both, especially if it's something like a snake and a wild caught dart frog."

If you read through my posts on this topic (on several different forums) I have been pretty strongly against keeping predators and prey animals together. In fact, there are only two potential examples I can think of that I have mentioned that could even remotely be applied to that statement one (which has occured at multiple institutions with no problems is the keeping of D. auratus with eyelash vipers (B. schlegelii) often the same individuals for more than a decade and a second exhibit I would like to set up which would consist of urutus, D. castenoticus and possibly a small sympatric hylid. I am making this comment as you are implying that I regularly keep wc dendrobates (Or regularly condone it) in with potential predators (or other predators and prey species together). I am interested in why you are making that inference. Please justify your statement.

snip "I don't belive in trusting just one persons word on anything, anyone can be wrong or off on"
and snip "because I can't provide all the references to back me up"

So why does the first part of this not apply to you? Are you always correct and never make a mistake? Is you advice better than everyone else's particuarly when you cannot back it up (as you admit)with a reference or even long-term experience (such as over 30 years worth with some species in my case?)

Why do you think I would unfairly edit your post? I find also find that statement offensive as you have no grounds on which to make that statement or judgement. I think one of the other moderators would do it if they found it necessary.

I can " shoot" anything you say in this thread down as so far it consists of unsubstantiated comments some of which are thinly veiled personal attacks on myself.

Ed

Ed,
You mistook some of what I said, the references to the turtles and the dart frog and snake were not references to you. I should of said which part was a sort of stab at you.

"If you cannot substantiate your point of view then you should refrain from making statements about it particuarly when you are making the statement to rile a specific individual."

I meerly wanted it to be known that I don't agree with you on some things. I'm not one who blindly follows everything, and noone should blindly follow anyone no matter how much they know.

"So why does the first part of this not apply to you? Are you always correct and never make a mistake? Is you advice better than everyone else's particuarly when you cannot back it up (as you admit)with a reference or even long-term experience (such as over 30 years worth with some species in my case?)"

It does apply to me, and I have been wrong before. Noone is ever perfect, and that's my point, people take your advice and treat it like gold. You can have 30 years of experience with keeping animals, but it doesn't mean you know everything about them either, I have been keeping herps since I was 4 or 5 years old, it's been something I've been doing since I was wee little, does 17 or 18 years experience account nothing? I certainly don't feel I know enough about animals, I'm always learning and so are you, so I can by no means claim to be right all the time and neither can you. It feels like a lot of people use their amount of experience as a sheild that says "I can say or do no wrong", and that mixing thread from dendroboard seemed like a moment in that for you to me, many points and counterpoints were made and some of what you said made perfect sense, but I still can't imagine keeping that many redeyed treefrogs in that size tank for breeding good for their health, you state space needs per frog to back up what you say, but who is to truthfully say you're right or wrong? They will breed with proper stimulation regardless of their condition, so the breeding can't be an accurate gauge of their health, I know you know that after working with animals for so long. The only way to know would be to hook up their mind to a machine that tests stress levels, but then who is to say what acceptable stress levels are to begin with? I also distrust a lot of those old methods of keeping and maintaining animals, I know you've seen more outdated information than I have. Would you wholeheartedly trust the information in those old books? It's one of the reasons I can't cite a reference for a lot of it, it hasn't been changed because many people don't care to have it updated.
Basically I don't agree with information that's "right because someone just says it is", which seems to be the case with a lot of information out there anymore.

"Why do you think I would unfairly edit your post?"

There have been moderators on several forums who have edited my posts simply because I don't agree with things they say, or for some reason they find the truth too much for many people to take, kingsnake being one of the ones to edit and delete a lot of posts I had made in the past. I wasn't sure how you take criticism, and it would look bad if you were the one to edit a post directed at you.

Joshua,
Ed isn't the only one that thinks careful mixing is fine. I have mixed species all my life with very few problems. I am sure that we can all agree that its not something that should be recomended with any species all the time. However with care its not nearly as dangerous as it is sometimes cracked up to be. I think most in the NEVER MIX SPECIES club had one bad accident(often through foolishness) that turned them off or are just giving echo to what others have said. I think never mix species is just a common modern myth. My opinion only though, I have met many that disagree.

Hi Joshua,
This is where experience comes into play. Do you know where the original 5 gallon rule originated? I know where it came from, I have strong evidence from where it is derived. That is one of the benefits of being in the hobby/trade/profession for a long time. You get to see the evolution of "rules" from guidelines and the subsequent ossification into dogma.
I think you need to go back and reread that thread as you have totally misinterpreted the spatial argument. I used the 5 gallon dogma as a basis to demonstrate that as the tank size went up the average usable space per animal went down and that the dogma about "5 gallons per frog" was not a valid statement.
I will be very interested to hear what you have to say on that matter.

If you want to include the time I had herps when I was that young then you can increase that time frame to 36 years of experience. I only counted the time from when I was able to rear my first second generation herp.

If you want to argue about the RETF (as this is a caudate forum), please post it on Dendroboard or e-mail me off list.

Longevity (I will answer this hear as this applies to caudates as well) is often linked to stress levels. Stress levels are indicated by corticosterids (and are widely accepted in the scientific community as a way to gauge stress), if corticosteriod levels are high reproduction can be reduced or eliminated, however high corticosteriod levels (an indicator) of stress will also immunosuppress the animal resulting in infections that can/will kill the animal in question. This is one of the reasons why aeromonad infections can devestate a group of animals so quickly.
In addiiton high corticosteriod levels are linked to many factors that reduce longevity in multiple genera.
If you want I can refer you to some references on corticosteriods and their effects so you don't have to take my word for it....

I have not "hid" behind my experience here or elsewhere. If you would pay attention to my posts on this and other forums, I tend to be limited to what I do have experience or knowledge. I often admit to when something is my opinion and will often back it up with a citation when it isn't. What you have done here (and elsewhere) is made judgements and comments on belief statements that are contradicted by the practical experience of other people. When you are challenged on it, you do not have any countering argument other than your belief statements.

Ed

(Message edited by Ed on March 18, 2005)

(Message edited by Ed on March 18, 2005)

Seth-
I have mixed before, in my younger days, I had some bad mixes and some good mixes, bad being frogs in with turtles and the good being different aquatic turtles together. I'm not against it because of the bad mixes I had, I know they were stupid and done without thinking about it. I don't mix because the animals lives are in my hands, and they shouldn't have to have any added stress other than being kept captive or from their breeding partner. Some of it is a modern myth and some of it isn't, if I had to mix anything I would definately quarantine everything extra long, like say 4 or 5 months to ensure perfect health when introduced, lots of people toss them together immediately when they get them not realizing the stress from the pet shop and stress from the other animals can kill them.


Ed-

"Do you know where the original 5 gallon rule originated? I know where it came from, I have strong evidence from where it is derived."

No I don't know where that came from. I would like to know though, I've never been a full believer in it, and I suggest different tank sizes for different frogs, where you can easily keep 3 mantellas in a 10, I would say 3 green treefrogs would need a 30, unless you can heavily plant the tank, then you could use a smaller tank or have more frogs in the tank.

"If you want I can refer you to some references on corticosteriods and their effects so you don't have to take my word for it.... "

That would be good, I would like a little better understanding of them.

"If you want to argue about the RETF (as this is a caudate forum), please post it on Dendroboard or e-mail me off list."

There's no argument to be made, I just basically wanted to know why so many in the tank. I don't want to assume anything, so I'll ask, was it heavily planted, I figure if it's a tank for them to breed in they usually use leaves to lay their eggs on.

"What you have done here (and elsewhere) is made judgements and comments on belief statements that are contradicted by the practical experience of other people."

I've made comments and judgements based on my experience. When does it become practical experience versus a belief statement, everyone has to go from belief statements to practical experience at some point. Everyone starts at the bottom, I know you did at some point as well.

How often when you walk into a pet shop if you do anymore when you tell them that something is wrong with their herp section that they should change it and when you tell them what they should do about it do they ignore you? I still get that all the time, and we're not talking small things, we're talking about keeping uromastyx at 80 degrees, and a musk turtle on land with a water dish it can't get into, they even have books in the shop that say it and they look at me like I'm stupid because I look young. I get this all the time with anything I say, every time they get an employee that listens to me the employee quits because they realize how much stuff is wrong.

here is the list of articles I suggest you read
Wojtaszek, J.S. 1993. The Effect of Cortisol on the Circulating Blood Parameters and on the Activity of Alanine and Aspartate Aminotransferases in the Grass Snake Natrix natrix natrix L. Comp Biochem Physiol [A]. 105 (2):259-266.

Mahmoud, I.Y., K. Vliet, L.J. Guillette and J.L. Plude. 1996. Effect of stress and ACTH(1-24) on hormonal levels in male alligators, Alligator mississippiensis.

Blair, W. Frank. 1964. An ecological context for the effects of chemical stress on population structure. Bulletin of the Entomological Society of America. 10 (4):225-226

Cowan, Daniel F. 1968. Diseases of captive reptiles. JAVMA. 153 (7):848-859.

Gist, Daniel H. and Marvin L. Kaplan. 1976. Effects of stress and ACTH on plasma corticosterone levels in the caiman Caiman crocodilus. General and Comparative Endocrinology. 28 413-419.

Gorden, R. W., T. C. Hazen, G. W. Esch and C. B. Fliermans. 1979. Isolation of Aeromonas hydrophila from the American alligator, Alligator mississippiensis. J Wildl Dis. 15 (2):239-43. (stress may have made the animals susceptiable to infection).

Moore, F. L. and L. J. Miller. 1984. Stress-induced inhibition of sexual behavior: corticosterone inhibits courtship behaviors of a male amphibian (Taricha granulosa). Hormones and Behavior. 18 400-410.

Saad, A.H. and et al. 1984. Effect of hydrocortisone on immune system of the lizard, Chalcides ocellatus. II. Different action on T and B lymphocytes. Devel. & Comp. Immunol. 8 835-844.

Bennett, M. F. 1986. Stress and changes in the blood of newts, Notophthalmus viridescens, during early regeneration. J Comp Physiol [A]. 159 (6):823-6.

Lance, V.A. and R.M. Elsey. 1986. Stress-induced suppression of testosterone secretaion in male alligators. J. Exp. Zool. 239 241-246

Paulson, B. K. and V. H. Hutchison. 1987. Blood changes in Bufo cognatus following acute heat stress. Comparative Biochemistry and Physiology A. 87A (2):461-466.

Summers, CH and Norman MF. 1988. Chronic low humidity-stress in the lizard Anolis carolinensis: Changes in diurnal corticosterone rhythms. J.Exp.Zool. 247 (3) 271

Cree, A., L. J. Guillette, Jr., J. F. Cockrem, M. A. Brown and G. K. Chambers. 1990. Absence of daily cycles in plasma sex steroids in male and female tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus), and the effects of acute capture stress on females. Gen Comp Endocrinol. 79 (1):103-13

DeNardo, Dale. 1990. Stress: a real but not well understood phenomenon. Vivarium. 2 (5):25-27;29.

Elsey, R.M., T. Joanen, L. McNease and V. Lance. 1990. Growth rate and plasma corticosterone levels in juvenile alligators maintained at different stocking densities. J. Exp. Zool. 255 30-36.

Elsey, R.M., V. A. Lance, T. Joanen and L. McNease. 1991. Acute stress suppresses plasma estradiol levels in female alligators (Alligator mississippiensis). Comp. Biochem. Phys. A. 100 (3):649-651

Frank , L. , e.a ,. 1992. Comparison of serum cortisol concentration before and after intradermal testing in sedated and nonsedated dogs. JAVMA. 200 (4):507-510

KALVIG, B.A., L. MAGGIOPRICE, J. TSUJI and W.E. GIDDENS. 1991. Salmonellosis in laboratory-housed iguanid lizards (Sceloporus spp.). J. Wildl. Dis. 27 (4):551-556

Pancharatna, K. and S. K. Saidapur. 1992. A Study of Ovarian Follicular Kinetics, Oviduct, Fat Body, and Liver Mass Cycles in Laboratory-Maintained Rana- Cyanophlyctis in Comparison with Wild-Caught Frogs. J Morphol. 214 (2):123-129.

Patton, Kevin T. 1991. Understanding stress in captive reptiles. Vivarium. 2 (6):18;36-37;39.

Ruby, Douglas E. 1992. Behavioral differences between captive tortoises at different stress levels. Proceedings of the Desert Tortoise Council Symposium. 1992 220.

Wingfield, J. C., C. M. Vleck and M. C. Moore. 1992. Seasonal changes of the adrenocortical response to stress in birds of the Sonoran desert. J Exp Zool. 264 (4):419-428.

CABANAC, M. and F. GOSSELIN. 1993. Emotional fever in the lizard Callopistes maculatus (Teiidae). Anim. Behav. 46 200-202.

Kreger, M.D. and J.A. Mench. 1993. Physiological and Behavioral Effects of Handling and Restraint in the Ball Python (Python regius) and the Blue-Tongued Skink (Tiliqua scincoides). Applied Animal Behaviour Science. 38 (3-4):323-336

Kuchling, G. and S. D. Bradshaw. 1993. Ovarian Cycle and Egg Production of the Western Swamp Tortoise Pseudemydura umbrina (Testudines, Chelidae) in the Wild and in Captivity. J Zool.

Marroni, N.P., C.A. Marroni, M.I.L. Rodrigues and M. Marques. 1993. Evaluation of gastric mucosa of an amphibian rana catesbeiana (Shaw) in vivo and in vitro at different seasons of the year and under the effect of stress. Arq Biol Tecnol. 36 (2):273-282.

STINNER, J.N. and D.L. ELY. 1993. Blood pressure during routine activity, stress, and feeding in black racer snakes (Coluber constrictor). Am J Physiol. 264 R79-R84.

Alberts, Allison C. 1994. Dominance hierarchies in male lizards: Implications for zoo management programs. Zoo Biology. 13 479-490

Larson, D. L. and A. J. Fivizzani. 1994. Hormonal response to acute stress as a biomarker for chronic stress in larval Ambystoma tigrinum. Froglog. 1994 (11):2.

Miller, Philip S. 1994. Is inbreeding depression more severe in a stressful environment? Zoo Biology. 13 195-208.

Miralla, M.R., N.P. Marroni and M.I. Rodrigues. 1994. Evaluation of Pepsin Secretion in Rana catesbeiana (Shaw) at Different Seasons, Under the Effect of Stress and Prolonged Starvation (Amphibia). Arquivos de Biologia E Tecnologia. 37 (1):23-35.

O'Connor, Michael P., Janice S. Grumbles, Robert H. George, Linda C. Zimmerman and James R. Spotila. 1994. Potential hematological and biochemical indicators of stress in free-ranging desert tortoises and captive tortoises exposed to a hydric stress gradient. Herpetological Monographs. 8 5-26.

Smith, G.A. and J. Marais. 1994. Stress in crocodilians - The impact of nutrition. pp. 2-38. In (eds.) Crocodiles. Proceedings of the 12th working meeting of the Crocodile Specialist Group, IUCN

Tyrell, C. and A. Cree. 1994. Plasma corticosterone concentrations in wild and captive juvenile tuatara (Sphenodon punctatus). New Zealand Journal of Zoology. 21 (4):407-416

Dunlap, Kent D. 1995. external and internal influences on indices of physiological stress: II. Seasonal and size-related variations in blood composition in free-living lizards, Sceloporus occidentalis. Journal of Experimental Zoology. 272 85-94.

Dunlap, K.D. and J.J. Schall. 1995. Hormonal alterations and reproductive inhibition in male fence lizards (Sceloporus occidentalis) infected with the malarial parasite Plasmodium mexicanum. Physiological Zoology. 68 (4):608-621

Hayes, T.B. and T.H. Wu. 1995. Role of corticosterone in anuran metamorphosis and potential role in stress-induced metamorphosis. Netherlands Journal of Zoology. 45 (1-2):107-109.

Gobbetti, A. and M. Zerani. 1996. Possible mechanism for the first response to short captivity stress in the water frog, Rana esculenta. Journal of Endocrinology. 148 (2):233-239.

Gregory, L.F., T.S. Gross, A.B. Bolten, K.A. Bjorndal and L.J.Jr. Guillette. 1996. Plasma corticosterone concentrations associated with acute captivity stress in wild loggerhead sea turtles (Caretta caretta). General and Comparative Physiology. 104 312-320

Mahmoud, I.Y., K. Vliet, L.J. Guillette and J.L. Plude. 1996. Effect of stress and ACTH(1-24) on hormonal levels in male alligators, Alligator mississippiensis. Comp. Biochem. Physiol. A. 115 (1):57-62.

Guillette, Louis J., Jr., D. Andrew Crain, Andrew A. Rooney and Allan R. Woodward. 1997. Effect of acute stress on plasma concentrations of sex and stress hormones in juvenile alligators living in control and contaminated lakes. Journal of Herpetology. 31 (3):347-353

Morici, L.A., R.M. Elsey and V.A. Lance. 1997. Effects of long-term corticosterone implants on growth and immune function in juvenile alligators, Alligator mississippiensis. J. Exper. Zool. 279 (2):156-162.

Mader, D. R. 1998. Understanding local analgesics: practical use in the green iguana, Iguana iguana. ARAV 5th Ann. Conf. Sept 26-29. 7-10.

Tyrrell, C. L. and A. Cree. 1998. Relationships between corticosterone concentration and season, time of day and confinement in a wild reptile (tuatara, Sphenodon punctatus). Gen Comp Endocrinol. 110 (2):97-108.

I was not going to type all of those in so I got them from an index of papers on the subject. There are a whole lot more on fish, birds, mammals and even invertebrates but I leave the location and perusal of them to you.

I also strongly suggest reading the appropriate sections in Amphibian Biology, Social Behaviors, 1995, ed by Heatwole, Surrey Beatty and Sons, NSW Australia
and Health and Welfare of Captive Reptiles, 1995, ed by Warwick, Frye and Murphy, Chapman and Hall, New York.

Ed

snip ""Do you know where the original 5 gallon rule originated? I know where it came from, I have strong evidence from where it is derived."

No I don't know where that came from. I would like to know though, I've never been a full believer in it, and I suggest different tank sizes for different frogs, where you can easily keep 3 mantellas in a 10, I would say 3 green treefrogs would need a 30, unless you can heavily plant the tank, then you could use a smaller tank or have more frogs in the tank."
and snip "There's no argument to be made, I just basically wanted to know why so many in the tank. I don't want to assume anything, so I'll ask, was it heavily planted, I figure if it's a tank for them to breed in they usually use leaves to lay their eggs on."

The five gallon rule has long been espoused as a rule of thumb for beginners starting with the ADG. As I pointed out on Dendroboard, as the size of the tank increases the useable area to the animal decreases. Why can't they use more of the space? They cannot float on air.
The derivation is partially based on the fish trade as this is where for over 50 years a volume/animal usage has been recommended and used. It is more appropriate for aquatic species as you are dealing with dissolved oxygen and the need to dilute waste products as well (neither of which is a concern with a terrestrial animal). This rule particuarly falls apart when we are discussing nonterritorial species such as many hylids (there are a few exceptions in Hylids). To use your green tree frog example, in the wild they will congregate in large numbers at feeding sites and roost together on windows in densities of 10 (I have seen as high as 30) or more on a standard window. What in this species behavior or biology makes them require a volume of 10 gallons each as they do not defend resting sites (ala some Eleuthrodactylids), they are not oxygen restricted, and it isn't needed for waste processing? The same for RETFs. The problem with it is that people have gone from it being a rule of thumb to dogma. Animal husbandry is not cookbook (despite what every may want). What works for me could potentially not work for someone else because there is some difference in technique or microclimate which is why dogma is so unacceptable.

There are a couple of very large spathophyllums in the enclosure for egg deposition.



snip ""What you have done here (and elsewhere) is made judgements and comments on belief statements that are contradicted by the practical experience of other people."

I've made comments and judgements based on my experience. When does it become practical experience versus a belief statement, everyone has to go from belief statements to practical experience at some point. Everyone starts at the bottom, I know you did at some point as well."

This is why I do not attempt to post everywhere on every topic, there are people who have more experience than myself with different animals. I may comment that I have seen something different and want to discuss why but that is how it goes.

snip "How often when you walk into a pet shop if you do anymore when you tell them that something is wrong with their herp section that they should change it and when you tell them what they should do about it do they ignore you? I still get that all the time, and we're not talking small things, we're talking about keeping uromastyx at 80 degrees, and a musk turtle on land with a water dish it can't get into, they even have books in the shop that say it and they look at me like I'm stupid because I look young. I get this all the time with anything I say, every time they get an employee that listens to me the employee quits because they realize how much stuff is wrong."

As I tend to stop in and get stuff on my way home from work and am usually wearing my Zoo outfit, I have little to no problems with that sort of thing.

Ed

Ed

Thanks for the list of articles, I'll see what I can do about getting ahold of some of them to read.

And you make a very good point about the green treefrogs,personally I've seen hundreds coming out of the side of a house before, the siding has lots of spaces for them to hide in. I know they will roost without problem together, my concern is that they have space to move about adequately when they are not roosting. That dense number of frogs had a whole woodland area to disperse into at night.

It's good to know the people in the petshops will listen to someone. Just about every time I'm in there I have to tell the customer looking at the green iguanas that the leopard geckos and bearded dragons make better and easier to care for pets.

(Message edited by joshmilliken2001 on March 19, 2005)

Hi Joshua,
With regards to the amount of movement required, this is usually related to the carrying capacity of the enviroment as it is directly correlated to foraging. In an enclosure, there is limited need for foraging and in fact the larger the enclosure the harder it is to ensure that everyone recieves a sufficient amount of food.
Amphibians do not demonstrate sterotypical behaviors due to insufficient space (but they do demonstrate them when they cannot hide, or do not have correct microcimates) unlike mammals, birds and a few reptiles (some monitors, tortoises, and a few snakes).

Ed

I had the pleasure of visiting the aquarium with my Biology of Fishes class last quarter, and we got the behind-the-scenes tour, including going up to the top of the pelagic tank and looking down. The shark was doing laps around the tank, swimming up to eye us on every pass. Eerie.

As it turns out, they routinely lose animals in the big tank due to tuna impacts. That's right, Tuna Impacts. The tuna freak out, and swim rapidly forwards at high speed. When a fish the size of a volkswagon slams into anything, there is serious damage. This happens a couple of times a year.

I'm still not sure how I feel about a white shark in a tank. I do know that the viewing area for that tank was packed wall-to-wall with people just standing there, waiting for her to swim by. She is a beautiful animal, and is probably changing at least a few people's opinions on sharks. The people studying her are learning a lot too, and she's better off there than dying in a net, being served on a dinner table, or winning first prize in a fishing contest.

Everything aside, animals do belong in the wild, simple as that. The shark has basically been abducted and is now being exploited and used as a research subject. Useful knowledge can be gained by its captivity, which is great, but we all know where its place really is.

Hi Nicholas,
That is an interesting statement given that you have at least one species in your collection that in all probability was wild caught and there is a second that is probably wc.

Ed

I have been following this post from the beginning, and have finally given in to posting an opinion of my own (probably much to my regret).

ZOOS/AQUARIUMS/ANIMAL DISPLAYS

Animal displays were originally designed as entertainment for the human masses, and for the scientific community. In the beginning, animals did not get the proper care mainly due to ignorance of the needs of each individual captured species. This has been rectified by the animal enthusiasts involved:

Zookeepers (most sincerely caring for their charges).
Zoo owners (can’t afford to lose their specimens)
Scientists (just plain interested)
Public (sympathetic public, outcries for better treatment of animals)

Zoos have evolved into public education and research institutions, and now play a large role in maintaining the knowledge base of how to properly care for animals in captivity (and in the wild). This has lead to an awareness that would not otherwise be acknowledged by the average person. And what is wonderful, this has all snowballed into the CONSERVATION of animals (around the world).

Should any animals not have been captured and displayed, none of this would have happened. In fact there would be many more species extinct today. We also would not have acquired the valuable information on how to (hopefully) save those species already on their way out.

Yes, it is sad that animals are lost during the way, but as far as “disasters” involved in keeping animals in captivity – that is going to happen, whether it be by lack of knowledge, or just plain lack of caring. Without “mistakes” one does not learn. This is all part of the process.

Extremely caring, responsible, people (such as the majority on this forum) lose some of their animals (esp wild caught) due to the same learning process. To blame zoos entirely would be a gross double standard.

PS: I would go so far, as to say, that 50% of dog owners shouldn’t even endeavor in keeping canis familiaris. But then that is another story…..