Sorry

hi everyone i really am sorry about that post in Advertisements. i really didnt know and im only 14. i just dont want everyone to think im a horrible person.

jeremy

Hi,
I think most people here are against the mass catching of wild newts to make profits although most buy WC(wild caught) when CB(captive bred) is not available...
Basically I guess we just want this place to be free of that stuff, there's plenty of other places for that.

We know you're young and didn't think twice, but now you know. I guess its not easy to know these things.

(Message edited by jennewt on October 04, 2004)

Did they delete the thread already?? I was trying to locate the laws for your area before the barrage started.

Here's the link to the Michigan regs, they're rather simple:

www.michigan.gov/documents/16360_fishing_87588_7.pdf

As long as you follow the law, everything else is opinion.

RUSS

Russ:
I thinks it is one thing to catch a few for private use, but to put out an ad where you say you will catch caudates for money??
Do you believe that caudata.org should support that?
I guess it really is up to John, I wish he would be more clear about what he thinks.
I do know that commercial ads are banned and I think this was a borderline ad.

Sure, everything is opinion - that applies to laws too Russ...Laws are just the opinion of the majority of a defined population(or should be a reflection of this anyway even though they are very conservative versions of opinions).

Point is that caudata.org is free to have ethical rules, the Michigan laws are not worth anything were this website is based(I assume...) so it would not make a difference for the ad in itself.

I believe that a overwhelming majority of the active people here do not want these kind of ads and even though this isn't a democratic institution I hope and think that John listens to that. Do you John?

Do you want these kind of ads on caudata.org?
I know I don't.

I didn't get to see all of the replies that were probably posted, but I could tell from the post that it was most likely a new and younger user. Guidance to the ethical side of herpeculture is critical, and laws make up a slice of that. I have no problem with the legal sale of WC animals if the person doing it has enough knowledge of their local species to know whether they're actually common or not. Of course laws will not always reflect this. Based on Jeremy's post I suspect he's still on that learning curve, which we all were at one time (and probably still are!).

I'd suggest that Jeremy check and see if there is a herp society or club in his area of MI (since there's two).

RUSS

You are a very diplomatic person Russ!
I agree in most things that you say. You are saying that you think it is ok to sell legal WC here. I think there has to be a distinction between WC and WC.

I don't think we want to promote mass collection whether it is legal or not. Also I do not think that collection based on request is something caudata.org should handle.
Most of the WC animals here are usually WC that have been privately caught and been kept in captivity long-term or has been commercially acquired. I feel that caudata.org should be about trying to promote captive breeding and help people get CB instead of WC.

(Message edited by jesper on October 04, 2004)

Hi Jesper,
I agree with Russ on this one which is where I was headed with my post when I asked if it was legal in his state. I was looking to educate before I requested that the post be shut down as otherwise Jeremey would not learn why it is a problem.
Jeremey in his post offered to catch some ambystomids for those who were interested and then stated that he would be willing to work out the price/cost of shipping. I doubted that he would be able to get a large group together and he was not asking to sell large numbers of these animals.
I'm not too sure that we should entirely discourage this as long as the quotas and legal aspects are observed. This to me was not a commercial ad (he was not running a comapny making money off of anything).
These sort of commentary in the past has been allowed such as what Paris said here about her tiger salamanders snip "mike-yes i kept some, according to our DOW you are allowed 6 adults and 50 larvae. i am looking to have representatives of both the barred, the blotched and the mix of the two-since we live in an area where they mix. i am not sure what pattern to call the real pretty female i have (from the other post). since i buy alot of what i have(havent got much to trade) i'd like to trade some for some of my missing stuff-esp as im strapped for cash right now."
One of the benefits with knowing who is doing the collecting is that the animals will be in better conditions than those purchased from the pet trade where they may have passed through several hands before ending up in the hands of the experienced keepers (however cb is always better).
For example at the moment the Zoo is thinking about adding Yonohlossee salamanders to the collection next year so I may be going to collect some for the Zoo and myself. How would this be different from Jeremey's post if I said I was going to collect some extra for sale/trade later on?

You are right this is up to John, but I think an effort to educate new members is always better for the first step.

Ed

I am not arguing about the education thing Ed.
I think continual discussion are good even though the end result of these are up to John.
I certainly don't agree with "i'd like to trade some for some of my missing stuff-esp as im strapped for cash right now."
In this case legal collection for trade. I still don't think caudata.org should have something to do with that and I don't agree with Paris in this statement.

Ed, I don't care if it is you or some kid I don't know who collects for trading/selling, I think it is wrong to do it, period. I think the purpose of the collecting laws is not for people to collect and sell/trade. Around here you interpret laws not only by what they say but what the purpose of the law was which is supposed to come forth in the background work done around the law.

When I said commercially, I meant it "as having profit as the aim" not that "as will mass collect".

Hi Jesper,
If it is legal under the collecting laws (which it wasn't in Jeremey's case) then what is the problem as it is small scale for specific people? (In other words, not collecting every animal that can be located).
So where do you draw the line? LT captives, F1, F2, F3?? What if I collected the animals for myself and then bred them and offered the offspring for sale?

Snip " I think the purpose of the collecting laws is not for people to collect and sell/trade."
Around here you interpret laws not only by what they say but what the purpose of the law was which is supposed to come forth in the background work done around the law"

Then why do the laws specifically list selling or trading as permissiable or not? If the law does not prohibit (or even specifically allows) the sale or trade of the animal(s) in question then what is the problem? If it is already spelled out as legal (or not) then I suspect that the intent of the law and the background is clear. For example here in New Jersey, I cannot collect any native species without a specific permit. If I want to sell them, then I need a second permit as well as retail permit for exotic animals. In Pennsylvania I would need a commercial collection permit and a fishing license as well as a tax id number. Both states for the permits would want to know the numeber of animals to be collected (which they can reduce or increase), where I would intend to collect (before a permit is granted) and where the animals were then sold.
In Pennsylvania, I can collect two salamanders with a fishing license but cannot engage in a commmercial transaction with them (specifically spelled out).

If it boils down to a belief statement (snip " I think it is wrong to do it, period") then there isn't much discussion around this that is of value as you have already made up your mind. If this is the case then I don't have too much more to say on this topic.

Ed

Ed, I just stated my basic belief and position. I look upon them as dynamic and subject to change, the period was a bit harsh maybe.

I see the principle not necessarily the practical implications. You want to separate collecting small amounts for some kind of profit(trading/selling/giving) from collecting large amount for some kind of profit(trading/selling/giving). The practical difference is obvious but the principle is the same. It is the principle that I turn against.

It is obvious you got me when it comes to the american laws that I do not know much about.
I go by the principle that wild-life should not be touched if not necessary, even if it is abundant. To collect anyway you should have to get a special permit and have special reasons to get one. The reason why we should not touch the wild-life is that we want an untouched and original wild-life that is affected as little as possible by human presence. That was my basic position.

Thus I was originally against any collecting whatsoever. Then I came here and saw a lot of people that collected a few newts or sals to keep in captivity and even hopefully to breed them.
I guess that made me more positive to collecting, but then this comes up. Collecting to sell or trade??

The difference between collecting and selling/trading directly and say keep them for a year then trading them would be that the keeper has made an effort to take care of the animal and lost all profitability of the animal. I suppose that one can't collect rare high priced newt/sals.

Many of the newts you have in the states could probably be sold for high prices here. Tarichas and notos would probably go for a decent price since they are seen as rare here(I took them as I am into salamandrids...). Isn't it better to ban the principle of collecting for profit than to sooner or later have some trader hire groups of 15 year olds to go out and collect. Say I contact one stupid teenager and tell him that you can collect 5 adult newts per person and encourage him to take as many friends as possible and point him to a breeding pond. To have such laws is to leave populations exposed isn't it?
I don't know about the situation in the US but here in europe newts are something rare and there are not many species that are not protected.
In Sweden all amphibians are totally protected from collection, even though some are abundant.

Hi Jesper,
You help make the point I was heading for....
snip "Thus I was originally against any collecting whatsoever. Then I came here and saw a lot of people that collected a few newts or sals to keep in captivity and even hopefully to breed them.
I guess that made me more positive to collecting, but then this comes up. Collecting to sell or trade??

The difference between collecting and selling/trading directly and say keep them for a year then trading them would be that the keeper has made an effort to take care of the animal and lost all profitability of the animal. I suppose that one can't collect rare high priced newt/sals"

I'm not sure that this is any different than someone offering to collect a few animals for someone who then wants to work with the species. In essence if the person is going to collect some and then offers to collect some for people on the list gratis (except for shipping) then this sounds like it gets around your objection but the animals end up being collected anyway. (The benefit to this is that animals may be bred and put into circulation reducing the pressure on WCs at some point). With caudates, if you keep them at the lower end of their metabolic range then the cost of maintance is minimal and high value animals would retain the value (such as Ambystoma annulatum).

Mike,
I do not agree that all ads of this type are necessarily bad (I do agree that they should be screened. I strongly recommend that the poster be educated). I do not think that the occasional ad of this basic type (I'm going here this can be collected legally, does anyone want a few) will reduce us to a meat market like kingsnake (maybe we should restrict the for profit part). You are correct there are loopholes in many of the laws (like your box turtle example) but in the states around here the builders have to hire an approved group before building on sensitive land to determine if there are state or federal endangered species present on the development site before development can occur. There was just a huge legal battle in the Pinelands over a development that accidently contained a timber rattlesnake den (state endangered species) and pine snakes (state threatened species). The devloper had to pay for tons of protection for the snakes and was prohibited from completing the development (I think the court's ruling included something like, well you took the risk developing in a region known to harbor threatened and endangered species, so tough luck).(they also had to include major water shed protection due to the presence of swamp pinks). If this occurs in Florida, isn't there a conservation group that can go after them legally? (Here in NJ we have the Pinelands Alliance (which I support)).
For an example of a major loophole; if I owned a ESA species legally in the USA. I would not need permits to ship across state borders as long as I did not recieve any value for the animal (according to USF&W, I shouldn't even accept shipping costs). This is a big loophole as for example a relative in Florida could buy an Andrias and ship it to me as a Christmas gift and I wouldn't need any permits to ship it or recieve it (but I would need permits for it here in NJ).

One of the items that is often exchanged here are common, uncommon and rare species in addition to ideas ect. There needs to be a way for these animals to get into the hands of the dedicated and the ads are often a good venue whether or not they are wc (like the recent imports of Tylototriton), F1 like some Eurycea offered here, or F3 ect.

Ed

im sorry i didnt mean to start a huge argument.

well i looked at the Michigan fishing laws somebody posted and it said i could collect 10 salamanders or newts with a fishing license. i think instead of causing a fight i'll just catch a few for myself (with the intent of breeding them). i dont want to cause any more fights or arguments. im sorry it seems like i caused alot of trouble. but thank you to everyone who tried to educate me rather than rebuke me.

Hi Jeremy,
This isn't a bad argument, it is a good one. Very interesting, at least to me.

Ed,
"I'm not sure that this is any different than someone offering to collect a few animals for someone who then wants to work with the species. In essence if the person is going to collect some and then offers to collect some for people on the list gratis (except for shipping) then this sounds like it gets around your objection but the animals end up being collected anyway."

It does not get around my objection! Collecting to give away for free certainly does not. Collecting a few specimen for yourself is one thing giving away another.

As I said earlier: the point of me saying one year in captivity was just to make sure it is not profitable to collect keep them for a while. If this is not possible for some species it is quite simple to say that you can only trade trade/sell or give away non-collected specimens.

Jeremy

That is exactly where I wanted you to go with this. Collect a few and try working with them yourself. You'll see that not all caudates are easily kept and shouldn't be handed off to just anyone. I'd start by buying a field guide (I'd recommend Peterson's) if you don't have one and try identifying the species in your area. Check here for a care sheet once you determine what they are. You should put together a set-up before you collect any, it will make things go smoother.

And I'd like to call this a discussion, not an argument.

Good luck and I hope to see you posting here in the future.

RUSS

Hi Jeremy,
Just make sure the species you want to keep are not protected. Even though there is a limit of ten, this does not apply to all species in the state. I second the recommendation for a field guide. Even some of the regional ones published by the state may help you. Don't worry about the discussion. These pop up now and then.

Hi Jesper,
The reason I made the comment about gratis was that your main argument was against commercial transactions with collected wildlife. To take this one step further. So it would not be proper to legally collect and send some animals to another person who is a dedicated person who is ernestly going to work with them? I view this differently as this will allow other people to establish and possible cb the animals without resorting to animals sold through the pet trade (Mike's meat market). The numbers are smaller, the animals are from known localities, from within a regional genetic base, the animals are handled and housed correctly prior to arrival at the person's house (fed properly, less stress, damage and/or illness) reducing losses.

Ed

Jeremy -

Like Russ and Jesper said, it's not an argument, it's a discussion. Some people take a little more passionate stand on it than others.

It's actually a good thing that you brought it up, because now other people can see this thread and learn from the mistake you were fortunate enough to avoid. I see your ad/apology as misdirected enthusiasm for the hobby and I hope you have as much fun from keeping animals as we do here.

Hi,
Yeah a discussion not an argument...sometimes my english messes up.

Hi Ed,
Yeah, I agree with what you say. My problem with collecting and sending newts is that it can be abused, it looks like a major loophole to me. If you put it like you did "another person who is a dedicated person who is earnestly going to work with them" it sounds good. But if you put it like sending to an irresponsible person who pay a lot of money it doesn't sound good. The point being that I do not think it is possible to differentiate collecting for giving away and collecting for selling to the highest bidder.

BTW I got to get this question out of my mind:
Do you really have so much of some salamanders that you can use them as fishing bait without threatening it?

Hmm I was thinking of an argumentation when I said argument, that's different right?

Hi Jesper,
Maybe I wasn't clear but the point with a dedicated person was included in my thoughts on my original post with the small scale collecting. It was not my intent that anyone who wanted a salamander should be able to pay someone to collect it for them. This was my error for not being clear enough.
To me most (if not all) of the people here are dedicated and very interested in the species that they keep (or want to keep). I would not want to see that sort of ad posted on other sites. It is also different than someone posting I have x number of y species collected for sale. It is a subtle difference and the location and who the post is addressed to is very important (at least as far as I am concerned) but this is my perception. You are correct it is open for abuse but then any dealing is open for abuse in other and different ways but again I think the targeted audience is the key.

Yes we do have a number of species that are plentiful enough to be used as fish bait. Some species (such as A. tigrinum) are collected and sold by the thousands and have been harvested in this manner for decades (also resulting in hybridzation zones between subspecies as they are introduced to new ranges). The use of salamanders as bait is popular enough that lures are based on them (although they are called lizards possibly after spring lizards) see http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31691&item=7105356910&rd=1 for an example.
In the southern USA, salamanders (aka spring lizards) are harvested as bait. Usually Desmognathus species (Like monticola and quadromaculatus) but others are collected as well. However I personally think that these species are more likely to have problems with the harvesting for bait.

Ed

Hi Ed,
Well, I guess the difference is between us are our belief in who are following the ads here. I know most people here are honest and deeply interested in sals, but I also(unfortunately) know that there are people here that are trying to scam(hehe) or trick people into collecting for them. I think most people here has been getting mail about collecting illegally(, I for one have received such mail(we only have two species here!) and I know of many others.

That is why I think of this kind of ads pose a threat.