CITES

I don't understand, I must have misinterpreted it in some way...

Of all salamanders and newts in this world only these are CITES-protected:

Ambystomidae:
Ambystoma dumerilii (II)
Ambystoma mexicanum (II)

Cryptobranchidae:
Andrias spp. (I)

Tell me I have misunderstood....

Shocking isn't it!
Give it time, when they fully evolve and develop fur, and become "cuddly" Caudata might then be in with a chance.

Actually, I have to say that Sweden is an example when it comes to protecting at least caudata.
All caudata is protected - you can trade with some cb species though. Wild-caught animals of all species are forbidden unless you have special licences.

Actually they are too strict I think:
The law says that I HAVE to use an aquarium/vivarium that has at least 0,15 square meters of bottomarea for ONE semi-aquatic salamander/newt UNDER 10 cm.

That is one huge tank for one triturus juvie for example...

Fortunately these laws arent enforced very strictly.

In Europe these species are also protected:

Salamandridae:
Chioglossa lusitanica

Euproctus asper
Euproctus montanus
Euproctus platycephalus

Salamandra atra
Salamandra aurorare
Salamandra atra aurorare -especially protected
Salamandra lanzai
Salamandra luschani

Salamandrina terdigata

Triturus carnifex
Triturus cristatus
Triturus italicus
Triturus karelinii
Triturus marmoratus

Proteidae:
Proteus anguinus

Plethodontidae:
Speleomantes ambrosii
Speleomantes flavus
Speleomantes genei
Speleomantes imperialis
Speleomantes italicus
Speleomantes supramontes



(Message edited by jesper on January 14, 2004)

Jesper, is that from the Berne Convention for the protection of Habitats (and some thing else that escapes me right now)?

I think so John...
here in Italy all reptiles and amphibians (so all the caudates) are strictly protected (you cannot catch,breed,take,sell,buy ecc...eny animal, both eggs, larvae or adults)...only universities and some institute can keep these animals..
this could be a good law but it's too restrictive...also considering that if someone wants to build a road destroying a Salamandrina's breeding site nobody stops him to do it...:-(
that's quite sad
Leo

Hi All,
Don't forget the CITES III classification. A country can ask that it's wildlife be protected in a manner similar to CITES I. This would probably significantly increase the number of animals protected under listing.

Hi Jesper,
In the state of Delaware in the USA the state lists newts as exotic animal and under thier laws requires that for each exotic animal that you own you need one acre of land.
Ed

John: Yes it was from the Berne Convention for the protection of Habitats.

Ed: Hehe, one acre eh - Well I can't match that.
Which species are CITES III protected then?

Btw you guys: They had to stop building a whole residental quarter just one km from where I live because they found breeding triturus cristatus there! Heh!

My wife found a breeding critatus in my tank, but still build her laundry room. LOL

1 acre, are they sick?

Any good places to read on how the lacey act works for caudata?

Cataldo

Jesper: Triturus cristatus breeding area only 1 km from your home? You should get out there and take pics for us with that new camera of yours...when you get it, of course!

Laws are very different depending from the place where you are.
CITES has NOTHING to do with nature protection but EVERYTHING with trade in wildlife.
The Bern Convention (1979) is not exactly the same as the EU-guidline for the protection of Flora, fauna and habitats (in 1992) although most european countries (as the Netherlands) see the FFH-guideline as THE European nature protection law. Please note that it deals with WILD animals, not CB bred ones. Therefor everybody who keeps these species should make yearly lists of what they have, where they got it from and if they breed to whom they have given it. If you ever get in trouble, you can always show that your animals were legal.
By the way...the Bern Conventiion also protects species which are not on the above shown FFH list...species like Triturus dobrogicus, Triturus montandoni and Neurergus strauchii and Neurergus crocatus! Currently in Belgium the police is trying to make a case of this and have captured species which are on CVB but not on FFH to see what the judge makes of it. Sadly...persons like us can be prosecuted because police or other law controllers don't know which law rules.
Triturus cristatus is legally the best protected species in Europe...guess why..because the UK where the ones starting FFH-guidelines....laws have sadly sometimes nothing to do with species which really need protection, but all with politics

Hi,
Sergé: Thanks for correcting!

John: I checked and the info is kind of confusing but I am pretty sure that the above list is the EU-guideline for the protection of Flora, fauna and habitats (in 1992). I only included animals with N and P classification, whilst dobrogicus for example only is B rated.


This means that the Bern convention species are not included in my list above! I will post a list of all species protected in the european union when I have time. Also the most important paragraphs and "explainations".

Then everyone can fill in with the local laws in their country - I was hoping we could gather a law collection for the european union.

I was thinking of collecting all this and post it on my homepage.

Yo Ed,
According to http://www.cites.org/eng/append/appendices.doc
There are not one CITES III classified Caudata.

This reference indicates that the above list of CITES-protected newts and salamanders are correct.

(Message edited by jesper on January 15, 2004)

Sergé:
The Bern-convention descibes exactly the same caudata as the EU-guideline for the protection of Flora, fauna and habitats the difference I have found is that they have a classification in the latter. The only difference will be, if I am correct, that Mertensiella luschani(Salamandra luschani), Triturus dobrogicus and Speleomantes strinati are protected by the bern convention but only their habitats are protected(B-classification) by the EU-guideline for the protection of Flora, fauna and habitats.

I have not found Triturus montandoni, Neurergus strauchii or Neurergus crocatus mentioned in the Bern convention, the EU-guideline for the protection of Flora, fauna and habitats or any of the CITES appendices(I, II and III)



(Message edited by jesper on January 15, 2004)

Hi Jesper,
I did not see them listed either but if I remember correctly there were some proscecutions in the USA for CITES III (and Lacy act) violations for the illegal importation of a caecilian (T. natans) in the USA about eight years ago. I would not want to be caught bringing say bolitoglossids out of costa rica or colombia based on whether they were actually listed.
The Lacy act applies to caudata just as it would to any other animal. The Lacy act does not make a distinction between a polar bear or a red backed salamander. If it was illegally collected (in some manner) and then transported across a state border or used in a cross state transaction you have violated the lacy act.
Ed
Ed

Hi Ed,
Well, They were probably violating the Lacy act then - since T.natans is not protected by CITES.
I have not researched into the Lacy act since I try to concentrate on EU laws, international laws and Swedish laws regarding newts and salamanders.

As far as I know american law is still not regarded as international law

Btw if they were prosecuted for CITES violations I suppose they had REALLY bad lawyers or or was acquitted very fast

It would be very nice if somebody from the states could give a report on the Lacy act.

Hi Jesper,
Except for tropical fish, farmed boas and iguanas, Colombia prohibits the export of any vertebrates. As a consequence the Colombian goverment has asked other countries to enforce this under the CITES III class (which is why T. natana (T. compressicaudas) is no longer imported into Europe or the USA. Some countries such as Canada that are a little more lax on thier enforcement still recieve regular shipments of these animals.
A country can ask to have its wildlife treated as CITES III regardless of the individual species listing. Otherwise each time there would be a new description of a species it would not be covered under the treaties.
This is how it was explained to me by USFW.
Ed

Hi Ed,
There are several CITES III classified species and the documents clearly states that they are so because a certain country has asked for it.

Colombia for example has registered several species ~10 for CITES III classification.
T. natans(T. compressicaudas) are not among these.

Why would they register individual species as CITES III protected if as you say their whole wildlife is protected by CITES III classification?

Who knows the real reasons a goverment may or may not do something.
The reason that there are specific listings for some species and not for others is because either there is a quota (under CITES II) for the same species from another country (to prevent laundering) or it is very similar in appearence to another species that is listed as a different class. If a country (such as Australia) that prohibited the export of an enormous number (or all) of its wildlife listed all of the species that it wanted protected the lists would rapidily become so cumbersome as to be unusable.
If you believe that they need to be specifically listed to be covered then I can think of any number of Australian species that would be worth your while to import into Europe that are not listed on the CITES listing. If there isn't any CITES covering then once they were out of Australia then there would be no international treaty to insure any punishment for smuggling right?
it would be easy enough to go through a third country that has lax security (say indonesia) and claim they were cb to get the export permits from Indonesia and claim the animals were legit.
Ed

A late response to the Bern issue...but in my lists the species I mentioned are on it. Even Neurergus strauchii and N. crocatus although they ended up under the anurans in some way...
I'll check the site tomorrow and give it to you.