Swollen throat, cloudy eye, cancer-like growth

Hi all,

Spent the last six hours going through all my tanks and turned up these three seriously ill newts (embarrassed to admit, but desperate for help!)

First, this C.e.p, suffering a badly swollen throat.



I've seen a pic of this condition before and read that it's often/usually fatal. Has anybody had a newt suffer this problem and survive following treatment? It must be in terrible misery...

Of course, I've cleaned and changed the water of the tank it was in before, but what to do about the newt's condition? A tetracycline or sulfur-based medicine perhaps? Going to the tropical fish shop tomorrow for something of use.

For now, I am keeping it out of the water, temporarily on sphagnum moss, as it had left the water when I found it.

Secondly, I present for your examination this other poor critter with a swollen and cloudy eye (from the same tank). Also being kept out of the water until I hear any better.



And then this C.p from, yes, the very same tank:




One of the pitfalls in keeping as many newts as I am now in so many tanks is that it's easy to overlook problems like this until it's too late. I'm lecturing myself, of course...

Hi Tim,
I own a C.p. female with a constantly swollen throat (for at least three years now). I don't know the cause though and I never tried to treat it. Maybe I'll send you a picture of it. Is your C.e.p. in the first pic still able to swallow food?
Is the cancer-like growth on your C.p. like tissue or could it be filled with liquid? How long did you keep the animals before noticing? Did they get into contact with your C.e.e.? I don't know if there is a single cause for the condition of these three newts.
Keep an eye on the tank and don't introduce the inhabitants to other tanks.
Wishing you the best of luck with your animals.

Ralf

P.S.: Please keep us informed.

Hi Ralf,
Thanks for the quick response. Constantly for three years? Amazing to hear that. But is it as swollen as my newt's throat? Do send a pic of yours when you get time! If you have [Amphibians in Captivity], you can see a pic of a P.hongkongensis on page 167 with the same prob.

Not sure whether my newt's still able to swallow food but will check that out shortly.

The cancer-like swelling (perhaps I shouldn't have said "growth") actually does seem to be filled with liquid as it's very soft to the touch. The newt seems otherwise fine.

All of these animals I have had together in the same 155cmx60x60 tank for quite some months now (30 C.e.p, 5 C.p. and 5 believe-it-or-not very gentle Paramesotriton -- my only "community tank"...shudder, shudder...)

None have come into contact with my new C.e.e, but one thing I'll own up to was that the large tank they were in was overdue for a water change (which I did yesterday before noticing the probs today).

Also, I did put some of my new Paramesotriton in there for the briefest amount of time just to take some pics -- but that was last week and I wouldn't think the infection of the newt in the first pic would have progressed that fast...

I'm wondering of there is some sort of safe antibiotic solution I could soak the two C.e.p in that would fight off whatever infection/infections they have. My very limited treatment experience so far has only been with external injuries...

This is the tank in question:



By the way, the Egeria I was struggling with before has been fine since I added a special light (Giesemann) for use with aquarium plants.

Having finally had a chance to do some homework, I find that some of my questions regarding that C.e.p newt with the swollen jaw have already been answered in a comprehensive article on bloat by Ed Kowalski located at:

http://www.caudata.org/caudatecentral/articles/bloatEDK.html

All I've read so far (in that article and in the caudata.com and kingsnake.com posts) suggests the prognosis is...NOT good.
Ed K.'s article mentioned some cases of "spontaneous remissions of bloat"...but I've yet to read a case of a newt with bloat being treated with medicine and recovering...

(aside from Ralf's, which I'm not sure has "bloat")

What can I do to facilitate a "spontaneous remission" -- keep it out of water or in water? put it in a sub-20C cool environment? Add a bit of salt?

There was a reference in Ed. K.'s article to a medicine called Hexamit that might be of some help if an anaerobic organism is the cause (but I have no way of knowing and know no herp vets).

"Hexamit contains metronidazole, an antiprotozoal medication that has some specificity against anaerobic organisms." (according to the article)

Today, I succeeded in getting an initial 250mm tablet from my neighborhood vet that goes by a different name but contains the same active ingredient, namely metronidazole.

"...metronidazole should only be used as an oral treatment for anaerobic infections; it may be fatal if overdosed." (same article)

Don't want to overdose! ...so would Ed.K or anybody else who has used this medicine effectively before kindly advise me how to administer it "orally" and in what dosage?
(I'll take this course of action only if the newt's condition worsens)

I found a Japanese site explaining how to administer it IN THE WATER for a discus fish suffering from water retention (fish get bloat too?), which said the generally recommended dosage of 100mg per 40 liters (10 gallons) of water administered every other day showed little effect, and first effects were only seen with 250mg added to the same amount of water daily. It goes on to suggest three consecutive days of treatment.

It says another method is to mix it into the food for seven consecutive days (I guess I could mash it in with some bloodworm for this purpose if indeed it'll eat)

By the way, Ralf, after examining the newt and comparing it with my personal "photo registry" (I photograph all new additions from different angles before adding them into a new tank), I learned this newt is a new addition from last month.

Though the tank doesn't seem to be overcrowded to me, I've nevertheless decided to scale down its inhabitants to a max of 30 to be on the safe side!

Definitely too late on the first one with the swollen jaw. When I got home today, I found it barely alive, totally limp except for the tail, which it's still moving ever so pitifully. Instead of being even more bloated than before, its body was surprisingly skinny, almost as it if had been drained of fluids, though the jaw remains swollen. Guess I should have been reading the Caudate Central article on euthanasia instead...

Priority has therefore shifted to the one with the eye problem, on which I'll shift to a new thread...

Tim, that throat infection was probably not bloat. Bloat affects the abdomen, often including the throat. The swollen throat with open mouth is something called mouth rot. There is a picture of a newt with a swollen throat similar to yours in "Amphibians in Captivity" p. 167. Also see: http://www.klsnet.com/sickamph.html

The tank dimensions you give don't jive with the photograph. Based on the photo, I think your tank is 45-55 gallons (about 200 liters). Sorry to be blunt, but I think it's overcrowded. I would say you could have about 15 newts in there reasonably.

Thanks for the quick response Jennewt and for the link, which give treatment info for mouth rot, namely finrot medication used for fish and a topical antibiotic after the soak. Maybe too late for this one though.

As for the tank's dimensions, excuse my math but it's certainly larger than a 55-gallon tank! I always did think how the size never really comes through in photos. One mistake I made was in saying it's 155 cm long when it's actually 150. It's 60cm deep, 60cm high.




The temporary little holding tank on the top is 30cm long, as is the light, and the bricks inside are all 21-cm long, if that helps.

As for overcrowding, I acknowledge that
But one thing I can say is that the sheer number of plants in there means the newts are fairly broken up into different strata throughout the tank, and when the plants are evenly spread throughout the tank as they usually are (unlike in the pic) one never sees more than 7-10 newts at a time except during feeding.

This is how it is as of now:



Anyway, do appreciate the advice and warnings. I'm obviously doing something wrong (I suspect poor water quality), otherwise all three cases wouldn't have come from just one tank!

Sorry, computer konked out on me. Here are the pics again in the same order.





I keep a maximum of seven newts (usually 4) in my 90cmx45cmx45xcm tanks, and a maximum of five (usually 3-4) in my 60cmx45cmx45cm tanks (which I think would be a 10 gallon tank over there)

Hi again, Tim.
Is there anything else you changed in the tank environment (except the lighting). Is this the tank that you supply with additional CO2. I don't know, if there is anything like "gas-bubble" disease in caudates (I've only seen it in fishes). You shouldn't apply antibiotics when you're not sure that it's a bacterial infection since it is prone to complicate things. If your newts show a tendency towards leaving the water, you should keep them in a terrestrial setup. Moss possesses some "mild" antibiotic properties also. There is also always the chance of secondary infections following initial adverse conditions, so that the infection might not be the primary cause for your newts' sickness.

Ralf

Hi Tim,
I just looked at the page Jennifer provided and it describes "gas-bubble" disease also for amphibians (ulcers). Gas bubble disease (supersaturation and condensing of gas bubbles in the tissues which is similar to divers' disease)can be caused by any kind of gas depending on the origin of the water (e.g. CO2 in spring water) and also by oygen. Might be a good idea to cut down on Egeria as well as lighting for some time (especially if you use additional "growth stimulants"). I'm not sure if this is the cause though.

Ralf

Hi Ralf,
Sorry if I seem to be hogging the board these days!

Well, I do want to stress that the water quality was quite poor the day before I noticed the three newts with problems. I was glad to see it flow away! And there was far more debris under the bogwood and rocks in there than I had expected.

The volume of water in this tank is quite huge and doing water changes has been a real pain, so I had been over-relying on three filters -- Fluval submersables at each end and a big sponge filter in the middle. When I took the first pic yesterday, I temporarily had them on a bit strong on one side of the tank, which accounts for that part being devoid of plants.

I've since come to my senses and the other day bought two long hoses to make it easier to do water changes, one leading from the tank to the balcony to dispose of old water, and another from the kitchen sink to add fresh water (most people would prob have thought of this before but...)

Yes, I did change the lighting (and sometimes worry it's too strong, too close to the water -- it being the kind that emits a particular kind of ray that helps plants thrive), but I haven't yet got around to supplying it with additional CO2 for the plants like we discussed before, as the light seems to do the job.

As it is now, the newts seem fine in the tank (esp. now the water's clean), showing no tendency to leave the water. There's normally a land area in there as well in one corner, which firmly attaches using multiple suction cups, but they seem to be doing OK without it while I wait for a chance to get new moss.

So having too many plants can actually have a negative effect...

If I cut back on Egeria, I'd definitely have to reduce the population in there because as I mentioned the newts are widely dispersed among the Egeria throughout the tank.

I'll right now remove those bricks from the middle of the tank because the newts tend to rest at the top, which is directly below the light, and the "island" in there sometimes also drifts directly beneath that light.

Other than adding the light, another thing I did was to add some quite expensive aquarium bacteria formula that comes in vials -- a powder vial and a liquid vial -- to help speed completion of the nitrogen cycle. It's called B-4 here in Japan.

Cheers

Sorry Tim, I see where I went wrong. I had assumed that the brick in the front of the tank was one brick standing upright. Now I see it's a whole pile of bricks. You have a 150+ gallon tank! Wow. That's about 600+ liters. How did you ever carry that tank home??? Empty, it should weigh 300+ pounds (130+ kg). Perhaps the number of newts in there is not excessive. I could bug you about other things, but I've probably annoyed you enough for one day!

Hahaha, no prob Jennewt, all is forgiven and pls...bug away! I thrive on constructive criticism!

One thing that probably subconsciously threw you was that ceramic frog on top, which is actually pretty big. I won't raise the water level any higher for fear that the floor of my fifth floor apartment will cave in and I'll be in debt for life! I did a calculation once on the weight with water in it....and it was scary.

On things to be bugged about, I know the mixing of Cynops with Paramesotriton in this one tank is a definite no-no by most knowledgeable people's standards, and the fact that I've experienced "no problems so far" doesn't mean there won't be...and all that. They'll eventually be moved out...but I still do insist these particular Paramesotriton are the most mild-mannered to be found -- and yes, even during chow time!

Hey Tim, sorry to hear that the one with the swollen mouth was doing soo poorly. Did it die? I'm a lil late on this thread, but I have cured that several times in T. shanjing. My biologist friend looked at them and figured out that the tongue was swollen.

To treat it, I took 1 teaspoon of table salt and 4 oz. of cool water and mixed them to form a saline solution. You have to gently open the mouth(the easiest way to do so is to squeeze the swelling and it will expose the inside of the mouth). Then, put a few drops of the saline solution onto the swelling(inside the mouth) and wait for about 5-10 seconds. Then, just lightly rinse it and let him go. The treatment may have to be repeated in a day or two to eliminate any remaining swelling. I've tried this on 5 different shanjing, and all have gotten over it.

Even if this was too late, it may prove helpful for others.

~Aaron

Thanks Aaron! Yes, it died. But part of the reason I posted my probs here instead of by private e-mail is exactly that -- to get advice that will prove helpful to others (and myself!) in the future! That's the first I've heard of such method of treatment though. Do you think the reason your T, shanjing got this stemmed from poor water quality or something else?

I believe the problem with the shanjing was due to stress from shipping. I'd assume that this stress would be similar to a water quality thing. Being how shanjing are highly terrestrial, I don't know if water quality would be a factor for them.

~Aaron

Oops,...when you said shanjing for some reason I was thinking Pachyhynobius shangchengensis