PLEASE HELP ME

MY FIRST ATTEMPT AT HELP FAILED AS THE MODERATORS MOVED MY POST TO ANOTHER FORUM(SUPPOSEDLY) THEN IT WENT MISSING
HERE GOES
MY FIRE BELLIED NEWTS FRONT RIGHT ARM IS SEVERLY DAMAGED BY SOMETHING, IT IS VERY VERY SWOLLEN AND THE SKIN HAS SPLIT LEAVING AN OPEN SORE IT IS ALSO DISCOLORED ITS A REDDISH BROWN COLOR
PLEASE HELP ME
SOME ONE
I CANNOT GET HELP FROM THE VETS OVER HERE OR THE PET SHOP I OBTAINED THEM AT AS THEY HAVE NO INFORMATION ON THEM I REALLY NEED HELP!

Aaaaargh my eyes hurt!

sorry im just a bit desperate, can you help me?

The Newt and Salamander Help section of this site is easy to find. But here it is anyway:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7/7.html?1100741899

Your "Good and Bad News" thread is there. Here is the direct link to it:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7/26572.html?1100656564

Regarding your comment that your first attempt to seek help failed because a moderator moved your post, that's just silly as yet another thread in which you asked for help for the same problem is right next to this one, in this very same discussion area. Here it is:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/26388.html?1100738377

"I noticed that one of my newts, the one i suspect to be the male, has an arm that looks fatter than the rest. i think its a bit swollen. I cant be sure what happened exactly. I think that my brother was holding one (while I fixed something in their tank) and he may have dropped it about Three or Four inches from the floor. Would that be Enough to break His arm if he landed on it funny? Although it may have been like this before I bought him, I suspect it was my brother....
please help me!!"

I subsequently gave you advance warning that I would move it to the proper area. But out of consideration for you, I hadn't actually moved it because the thread was still active. I moved the other one because nobody had replied to it yet.

I'm sorry to hear about your newt, but if you have a health problem with your newts, please do use the appropriate area to seek help. Meanwhile, you could check out the articles at Caudate Culture (http://www.caudata.org/cc/), scan through the Newt and Salamander Help questions that have already been asked, used the search mode, and use Caudata.org Chat

Tim>>
When I posted my "Good and Bad News" I accidently posted it in the Newt and Salamander part of the site, by the time I realized it it was too late to delete it so i just left it there.
You told me you would move my "new>need help" post into the Newt and Salamander forum-wasnt I already in the right place... i have fire bellies so i went to the fire belly forum?
And the only reason I posted this is because i wasnt having much luck with my "new>need help" post in regards to my sick Fire Belly...

Please excuse me if you thought I was acting innapropriately but you made me very confused, but I know how to use this site and I know which forum is which now, all I wanted was a little help with my Fire Bellies

look closely and you can see a white spot where a blister formed then popped. Sorry the picture is so blurry...

i found help,
help said to amputate so i did
The newt is fine now
i will post a picture of his leg when it skins over, its a bit graphic to post now.

Heather, one reason why such posts should be placed in the Fire-bellied Newts discussion area is that Chinese fire-bellied newts are perhaps the most commonly kept newt, so without any guidelines or rules, this section would quickly fill up with posts about how to cure them or get them to eat. There are already almost 2,500 posts in here -- far more than elsewhere in this part of the site, and so many that they have to be repeatedly archived. I understand you desire to get help for your newt, however and wherever you can find it, but I've been tasked to keep some semplence of order around here

Anyway, your newt seems (to me at least) to require both direct treatment, perhaps with an antibiotic ointment and antifungal medication (if fungus is present), as well as supportive treatment in the form of nutritional intake and being soaked in amphibian Ringer's solution. Obviously, your best bet would be to take it to a qualified vet. But if you really can't do that, then perhaps you can purchase an ointment from your local pharmacy or a topically applied antifungal medication from a pet shop. Use the search function of this site to find potentially useful medications like "Baytril" (an antibiotic). But do be very careful about using the wrong medication or using the right one in the wrong way (such as overdosing). For example, 3% hydrogen peroxide solution could be used to disinfect the damaged part of the leg, but this is very caustic, harsh stuff. Only a drop, slightly diluted to be on the safe side, applied using a moist Q-Tip, and then rinsed off a few seconds later. Certainly don't dip the whole newt in the fluid or in an antifungal solution used for fish, because that could kill it. I don't know much about salt baths or the use of dirt, but there are articles on those treatment methods at Caudate Culture. I'd say do what you can, within your means and within reason, to help the newt, without subjecting the poor thing to too much stress from "over-doctoring" and experimentation. Good luck!

Yes, amputation is one way to go about it, and perhaps what I would have chosen in this case, but the last time I suggested that, it sparked a fierce reaction You still have to contend with that nasty wound and fungus, so good luck with that. Consider the use of Bactine, mentioned in a link provided by Jen:

http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/research/amph_dc/sop_restraint.html

Honestly I don't get it why this post is still here. You guys are too nice.

I would have answered if it wasn't for the god damn caption and the fact that it was in the wrong place.

1. I need a better picture of the wound to make a judgement.
2. Was the wound made by infection or by a physical injury?
3. Was the wound growing?
4. Why amputate?? Where did you amputate?

If it was a systemic infection amputation would be useless. If its a minor local infection you just need to clean it. I never get why we never trust the newts immune system, they do have one.

I'd say that amputation should be used only for very advanced local infections. Remember that the blood loss might cause the amphibians to die.

(Message edited by Jesper on November 19, 2004)

It's been moved.

See, amputation is a touchy subject, and rightfully so. It ain't something that should be done lightly. The only time I have done it was when I had a newt in which the bottom portion of its mangled leg was hanging half-off and rotting. Now that I've found a vet who treats amphibians, I doubt I'll be doing it again. Hopefully the scissors you used were disinfected beforehand and very sharp, and the leg was cleaned beforehand and the wound disinfected afterward.

Jesper, I recall her saying she suspects physical injury from a fall. That may have become infected.

My knowledge of medical treatments is so limited that its probably best that I leave off here.

<font color="ff0000">This thread has been moved here from the Fire-Bellied Newts section -- Tim</font>

I currently have a c.o. with a wound pretty much like the one in your picture. I believe it was a bite. The area is swollen sure, that's due to the immune systems response - fluid(blood plasma) leaks out into the surrounding tissues and with it macrophages and other leukocytes.
I don't even clean the wound, I leave that to the immune system. Supply the newt with a dark and calm environment and study what happens every day.
If the wound is getting larger I clean it and use broad spectrum antibiotics. If that doesn't stop the infection I might consider amputation, but usually I just wait and assume that the antibiotic in cooperation with the immune system will stop the growing ulcer. I have not seen one single infection take out a whole leg yet, but if it would I would probably amputate.
I have another c.o. with an advancing ulcer on upper jaw. I was afraid of the eye but the bacteria seem to avoid the eye tissue as the ulcer grew around. The ulcer has now eaten away all the tissue so I can see the newts upper jaw.
I treated it with broad spectrum antibiotics and waited, the ulcer continued to spread. However, now the immune system seems to have kicked in, the wound has stopped growing.

It's the same thing in all the pet shops I have seen, the healthy c.os are terrestrial while the ones in the water have ulcers.
Its strange, but I try to follow this and I always keep them in water when they have ulcers. Ulcers do tend to get worse if I put them back onto land too early. I have noticed that once in the water newts with ulcers tend to shed skin all the time while they don't do this at all on land.
These are just my experiences.

PS These are pet shop newts that have been/are ill and subsequently have been given to me DS

Ah, long post

Quote:
"I have not seen one single infection take out a whole leg yet, but if it would I would probably amputate."

Too bad you did not told me those infos about amputation in my other thread Jesper.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/7/25318.html?1100548159}

I would have tried it when I saw no response from immune system.

I have seen limbs lost due to infections.
With infections one of the points to remember is that if the infection is centered in the bone then the infection can be spread much further than is evident by the tissues' reaction or appearence. This may cause the lesion to spread as the death of the bone tissue affects the surrounding tissues. This may require amputation of the affected limb or tail tip. In these cases topical antibiotics are usually of little to no value and wound debridement is also ineffectual as the actual infection is not being addressed.
This is why a vet's opinion may be of value.

Some comments,

Ed

Jean-Pierre - As you probably saw I didn't want to get involved then... I was very busy trying to finish up a lecture and an essay. Now I am free again, that's life - sorry. Also as I said you should probably have used a better antibiotic(hardcore human antibiotics, if it's not good enough for humans it is not good enough for my newts , of course not all antibiotics suitable for humans are suitable for newts)

Ed - I agree you should go to the vet if you can afford. One thing though: Do you think it is realistic that people will pay 4-5 times as much for a vet bill than they did for an animal?
My way is that of trying to collect all the info I can and then do my best with what I have. When I go to the vet it is to get antibiotics.

Pet shops sure don't go to the vet with ill newts and I think the success rate by amateur newt healthcare can be reasonably high if you have a couple of newt suitable broad spectrum antibiotics and some idea how to use it. Naturally the most important thing is to have an idea of how to make the newt comfortable, to know its natural environment.

I believe amputation and forcefeeding if applied correctly are a good, if not necessary, part of amateur healthcare for newts.
Anyway people are doing it, few is posting it here though. Basically what you will get is, why didn't you let the vet do it??
I have been that way myself so...Maybe in the best of worlds that attitude would work.

One problem is that if you start giving advice on how you do forcefeeding etc, you know it is going to be preformed badly by some people and then you are going to be blamed etc. Also most things you do is at best experimental and not exactly something you would recommend.

A side note: Physicians here do NOT grow bacteria(to do Minimal Inhibitory Concentration(MIC) tests) before they give antibiotics to humans, they judge the type of antibiotics by the localization and symptoms etc and put in an antibiotic that usually works. I am not just talking acute healthcare here but ordinary non-acute too.

Hi Jesper,
Physicians here also usually do not grow cultures unless there is some overriding reason to do so. The vets at work do it on occasion as the facilities are on grounds.

I think you gave the perfect reason for why a person should consult a vet in your third paragraph regardless of the cost of the animal...
If the person will not seek the assistance of a vet in the case of badly injured animals they should probably consider euthenasia as opposed to dragging out the pain and suffering of the animal until it either heals or passes away. At work we often recieve phone calls from people soliciting medical advice and when informed that they need to seek a vet, try and tell us that there are no local vets that treat herps. They are usually very surprised when we then read them the list of the local vets that treat herps.

I'm tired, and borderline ranting. Its been a bad couple of days as they just went through a layoff cycle at work.

Ed

This reminds me of a pharmacoeconomics class, put a price on the life before you treat.

Will you pay 10 000 dollar to save your dog? Will you pay 100 dollar to save your newt?
Will society pay 10 000 000 dollar to save your life?

I don't think most people would pay 100 dollar to save their ill C.orientalis. Unfortunately.

"If the person will not seek the assistance of a vet in the case of badly injured animals they should probably consider euthenasia as opposed to dragging out the pain and suffering of the animal until it either heals or passes away."


A badly ill animals that suffers but finally pulls through should have been terminated instead?
Depends on how you value the life of the newt...
You would never reason that way around a human life.

If I judge that the newt will pull through and can have a functional life I would go through with whatever(assuming I have the stomack and heart for it).

(Message edited by Jesper on November 20, 2004)

Hi Jesper,

So ethically what is the better "quality of life" regimen here? Let us use the broken bone sticking out of the animal's limb example here.
A trip to the vets involving a quick amputation under anesthesia and a short antibiotic regimen or multiple debridements and topical antibiotics at home that may or may not be effective at the same time denying the use of pain relief.
The amputation is a very effective method for controlling the spread of the infection as opposed to "waiting until the animal's immune system kicks in". (Note this does not save the limb so we are talking about a lost limb either way). This statement indicates that the animal's immune system does not always kick resulting that the animal has suffered through the treatment only to die. Pain will also increase stress levels resulting in a suppressed immune system which can lead to further complications. Additionally pain management in both animals and people can lead to more rapid recovery times.
So ethically given the lack of ability or desire to seek the assistance of a vet where does this place the person, attempt home remedies to try and save the animal without alleviation of pain or humanely euthanize a badly injured animal? What is in the best interest of the animal's quality of life?

The statement about using that reasoning around humans is not germane to this topic as to make it equivalent you would have to be willing to deny access to a doctor or hospital medical care to a sick or badly injured person first.

Ed

Ah, you are comparing a high cost treatment with a low cost one! You have to compare the cost efficiency too then. Basic medical treatment is always the most cost efficient one, that's what I am aiming for.

It's a fact that most people with newts do not go to the vet, it costs too much. That is certainly regrettable but as long as we do not have social security for newts or newt insurances that is just the way it is.

What should be compared is "home remedies"(I don't like the sound of that..., how about medical treatment at home...) to no treatment at all and the cost efficiency of this kind of medical treatment(Quality of life unit improvement per dollar).

That's why I think it is better to concentrate on what you could do from home when you are prepared.

I have never heard of a situation where people are denied medical care and thus killed to relieve pain. I do hear reports of people not given/denied medical care all the time(Israeli soldiers stopping ill palestinians from reaching hospitals/physicians).

From my perspective, I have taken on(been donated) very ill newts from pet shops, there is a distinct difference between these alternatives.
I could(too many, too much money) never go to the vet with these c.o. My only alternative is to treat them(my own money) at home as I am now. This is better than nothing at all. I do euthanize when I see no possibility of survival but definitely not to relief pain when survival is possible.

Should we really transfer our awareness of life and death to the minds of lower(?) animals? Would a newt commit suicide if badly injured as a human might? Who are we to say how much pain they could take before they prefer to die?
You take your pain preference and attach it to the newt and than kill it even though it would survive......
I'll consider getting some pain relief though, I have been avoiding that due to the overdose issue.

I would like to be able to afford your opinion too Ed....