Well I've been kinda stupid with t.grans...

Well, I love my animals... I mean REALLY LOVE them. In mid August I lost my t.grans McGloop to some unknown illness. I was devastated because he was my special boy. Anyhow, I've been feeding my newts frozen bloodworms and frozen mosquito larvae. I thought this was all that they need for some reason and I have belonged to this site for quite awhile.

McGloop left behind his friend McGlop and because they were always on top of each other or touching each other I brought home another companion for McGlop. McGooey, also a t.grans.

McGooey stopped eating several days ago and began withering away. I even bought live blackworms to try to get him to eat. McGooey wouldn't eat, started shedding non-stop and only free-floating in the tank. Haunted by guilt over the death of McGloop (I didn't get him to the vet in time), I found a vet that could see him and left work early yesterday to get him there.

Poor little McGooey has bacterial lesions that are being cultured to find out what it is. The illness made him stop eating, and then his body started to shut down and he became dehydrated, that is why he was in constant shedding and free floating. The water was good, and at this point it looks like this may have been caused by poor nutrition. Though I thought I was doing everything right. The vet told me that these guys need not only worms, but insects and greens. Greens! I had NO clue! She said that I should be feeding them a varied diet just like I do with my fish. I keep like 8 kinds of frozens for my fish, three different flake foods, pellets, and fresh veggies. I could have been feeding the little guys pleco greens, and emerald delight... I feel just awful...

I had to remove the driftwood and gravel from the tank and may not be able to use those in the tank again depending on what the bacteria is. In the meantime, McGooey is in a hospital tank on wet paper towels and I will be giving him an electrolyte bath a day, anti-biotics, and force feeding him.

McGlop is fine and back in the tank, not liking the change in decor much. I'm not sure if McGooey's going to make it at this point, but at least this time I got him to the vet before it was too late. Poor baby is so dehydrated right now that you can see his spine. I'm just glad that I can say that I did everything possible this time. I wish I could say that about McGloop.
Take care,
Mary.

I have yet to see my T. grans show any interest in greens. Blood worms, frozen or alive.. sure, wax moth larvae, definitely, earth worms.. depends on their taste, but greens are mostly used to hang around in, hide under or laying eggs on. As far as them finding food, they`re blind as bats it seems.. I tweezer feed them wax moth larvae and earth worms once or twice a week. The blood worms they usually can find on their own.

When you bring home a new animal, keep it in quarantine for at least a month. New animals from shops are often wild caught and may be very weak due to stress. Animals collected by yourself may also carry unknown bugs. Quarantine is always a good precaution.

Of my 9 T. grans, 5 are aquatic, 4 are terrestrial. I let them make their own choice. The terrestrial ones are not keeping their skin wet. They are dry to the touch, they like to have a hole/hiding spot on land. I use half a coconut shell for that.

Mary, the only thing I can think of from reading all your old posts is that you were changing water too much for a while. You have not been a "bad mom." Unfortunately many vets don't know a ton about amphibians, especially newts.

Your newts DO NOT need "greens". In fact, someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought they couldn't even digest "greens" and it was bad to attempt to feed it to them.

Worms are all you need.

I have kept newts since the 1970's and the only time that I seen any newt eat greens has been by accident while eating worms or incest's!

T. granulosa has been somewhat of a problem species for me as well. I had one with abcesses that were successfully treated with antibiotics. She subsequently died from anorexia (I called her Kate Moss because she was so skinny). She never really had much of an appetite.

However, I agree that a varied diet is important. They won't eat greens, but feel free to mix in other 'bugs'. Insects, various worms, larvae of insects, these all make good feeder items.

Good luck.

How long did you have the newt before it developed problems? The cause may have been poor care before you got it. Skin lesions are a common problem with pet shops newts.

Newts are carnivores and do not eat greens - the vet didn't do her homework on that one. And bloodoworms are, in fact, insects not worms. I know of newts that have been maintained (and bred) long-term on a staple diet of frozen bloodworms.

Driftwood and gravel can be briefly boiled (or immersed in boiling water) to sterilize. Personally, I would not hesitate to use them again.

In short, you did nothing wrong. I'm sorry McGlooey didn't make it.

Well, thanks guys. I truly trust this list and have recommended it to dozens of people. No joke. And honestly all the newts have eaten were frozen bloodworms, they've stuck up their noses to white worms and brine shrimp because I did try those on occasion when I was out of the bloodworms. I was shocked by what the vet said but she is on both of your lists as specializing in reptiles and amphibians. So, I bought some dry newt food to supplement with and I'll just start mixing in some of my pleco frozen greens and other fish foods, dry or frozen, with their worms when I feed them. Just to give them a little variety. I just didn't realize that I could or even should be doing that.

And Jennifer, to answer your question, I've had him for a little under two months. I had him for 6 weeks before he developed any problems. Hasn't been real interested in eating, not like my other one anyway, but definitely was eating enough and fattened up some from his shop size before he got sick. The other thing is that she told me that frozen bloodworms are horribly dirty and to thaw them and rinse them thoroughly before feeding. I was not doing this either, not with the newts or the fish.

Yes, and I followed your advice after McGloop's illness and subsequent death, I cut back the water changes, but I was only doing those during the days of the heat wave we had this summer. I have been changing 50% once a week.

Well, McGooey is still with the land of the living and it took me 20 minutes to force feed him last night. I am going to do everything I can to help him pull through this. I am doing for him what I didn't get the chance to do for McGloop.

Thanks again everyone, and I hope my post didn't sound accusatory or anything. I didn't mean it that way.
Take care,
Mary.

If you can get a hold of them, try a few wax moth larvae. They're great at tempting newts to take a bite. You best feed these on land, they'll roll and wriggle right next to your newts mouth.
If feeding them under water, use tweezers.

Try earth worm, I got a T. gran that have not been willing to eat for 2 months to start eating with earthworm. I dont think mixing the other food in is good. fish food and dry food are not willingly accepted or poor in nutrition, it will only polute the water.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Ian Choi on Thursday 05 October 2006 - 23:41 (Try earth worm):</font>

I got a T. gran that have not been willing to eat for 2 months to start eating with earthworm. I dont think mixing the other food in is good. fish food and dry food are not willingly accepted or poor in nutrition, it will only polute the water.,<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote>I understand and truly love you guys, but I've just spent $200 to try to save my pet by taking him to a vet. And the vet is telling me that they do need some variety unless you're using vitamin supplements. That they need worms, larvae, earthworms, crickets, insects, dry foods, greens...

As for fish foods, etc., I have gone the same route as I do with my cats and feed them holistic foods with no nasty additives. I.e, you won't catch me feeding them tetra min flakes...

As for McGooey, I think he's a goner, but I really don't want to go through this again. He's skin and bones and I was in tears trying to force feed him last night. I lost a long time companion cat 8 years ago due to natural causes and she withered away into nothing and I was in tears trying to force feed her, too. Whether McGooey pulls through this or not, I just want them or my remaining one to live a long and healthy life and I don't want to have to do this again for a long, long time. It's just breaking my heart.
Take care,
Mary.

(Message edited by mduros on October 06, 2006)

(Message edited by mduros on October 06, 2006)

Variety of livefoods is important, those you mention are fine to use...i promise you though, they don't need greens. Your vet is obviously well meaning but her knowledge of caudata doesn't seem too deep.

<blockquote><hr size=0><!-quote-!><font size=1>Quoting Mary T. Duros on Thursday 05 October 2006 - 18:35 (#POST107837):</font>

The other thing is that she told me that frozen bloodworms are horribly dirty and to thaw them and rinse them thoroughly before feeding.<!-/quote-!><hr size=0></blockquote> I highly recommend Hikari brand bloodworms. Oddly, I buy them at the place I generally don't recommend - Petsmart. They are very clean, and vitamin-supplemented too. I do usually remove the worms from the "red liquid" you get when they thaw, but i've never heard of rinsing them.

You are welcome to throw in some greens, but I'm sure they'll have the good sense not to eat it. I really think your vet was 'extrapolating' on what she knew about other herp diets, just assuming that it applies to salamanders. If I can find you an authoritative reference to the fact that newts are strict carnivores, would that help?

all amphibians are carnivorous after metamorphosis and don't need greens

Hello Mary
Could you share with us what the Vet did about your sick newt? Like what kind of treatment did she prescribe for your newt?
I look forward to your reply!

Sincerely, Alberto

Okay, I give... I believe you guys. I would love either a site or a good reference book on these guys. And I will mention the greens thing to the vet. I would love to have something to back me up.

My other newt has been fine and dandy on strictly frozen bloodworms since I brought her home in February. Unfortunately, her partner died during the heat wave in August. And then I brought home this one from the local fish store.

As for treatment, I am giving a 15 minute bath a day in normosol-r, because he is severely dehydrated. One cc of pipercillin a day for infection. .05 cc of rep enteral insectivore mixed with water and force fed by syringe each day. One drop of Gentocin Opthalmic drops for infection I assume. McGooey has bacterial lesions from some sort of an infection, they are performing a bacterial culture and we should know more about what we are dealing with on Monday. I have to call them tomorrow though, I managed to feed him but one of his legs bled a little in my hand so he has an open wound now.

I will talk to her about the "greens" comment. Besides that everything else rang true, because I do believe in variety, I keep on hand at least 8 different frozen foods and 6 different flakes, pellets and wafers on hand for my fish.

Oh, she also has me keeping him in a hospital tank with only wet paper towels because he is so weak and dehydrated he would otherwise most likely drown.
Thanks and take care,
Mary.

Hello Mary
Thank you for taking the time to share the Vet's treatment with us!
Good luck with your little newt!

it's really hard to see a newt suffer like this. Force feeding is a difficult thing to do.

To get some background info on treatment of sores try this page.
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/sores.shtml

Wright, K. M. & B. R. Whitaker. 2001. Amphibian Medicine and Captive Husbandry. Kreiger Publishing.
This book is considered the "bible" of amphibian medicine. Given most vets' unfamiliarity with amphibs, it's a good idea to have a copy to take along.

Here is what it says about nutrition (p. 59):
"Prior to metamorphosis, anurans may be herbivorous, omnivorous, or carnivorous, depending on the species. After metamorphosis, diets typically shift to being completely carnivorous, although there are a few exceptions. Larval and adult salamanders and caecilians are strictly carnivorous."
It then goes on to talk at length about "prey items". Note that "anurans" is the general term for frogs and toads - they may eat greens, but only as tadpoles.

Since the publication of this book, it was published that some species of siren does intentionally ingest some water plants, but that's the ONLY documented exception I have ever heard of in salamanders.

Mary - good luck with your newt! I know how hard it is to force feed them. Your efforts are commendable.

Thanks everyone. Just heard from the doc. The culprits are Aeromonas and Actinobacteria infections. The treatment I am giving him, should work for these and I will need to treat McGlop with the anti-biotics, too. She said that this sort of bacterial infection is particularly aggressive with newts and since he's been exposed to treat him. She also believes that the source of the bacteria was infected food.

Thanks for the cite Jennifer. I'll print it out and take it on the follow up visit. Maybe even this whole thread.
Take care,
Mary.

(Message edited by mduros on October 07, 2006)

Hello Mary
What food do you think was infected? I thought that frozen foods could kill most germs. I am just curious.
Once again thank you for taking the time to share what you have learn from the Vet about the illness of your newt. Is not often that you can find a Vet who know much about treating newts!
I wish your newt a speedy recovery!