Strange odor, skin prob (involving Paramesotriton)

Not sure what sort of problem I have here...




I started out with 8 of these extra-large Paramesotriton of unknown origin, some of which are suspected to be deloustali but could be anything.
Since the start, they had hardly eaten a thing...and I have lost 3 over the last month or so!
All seemingly fine one day and then dead the next, even though I was fairly confident that I was providing them with adequate conditions in this 60cmx45cmx45cm tank.



So today, when I decided to examine the remaining 5 of them one-by-one, the first one I removed (selected at random) let off a strange, foul odor -- in fact, the very same smell I had noticed before with the 3 dead ones when I netted them (at which time I had just assumed it was just because they were dead). This smell is such that it remained on my hands even after washing them well with soap & water.
Examining it under a light, I first noticed what looked like just a lot of trapped, tiny air bubbles on its skin. But when I used a Q-tip to brush a few "bubbles" off, I realized I was seeing more than just bubbles (air bubbles trapped in some sort of fungus?)




And in the last photo I noticed a problem with one of the toes on its hind left leg, though not sure if this is a related problem.

Has anybody experienced anything like this with their newts? Does this look like a fungal prob?



The water itself is clean (it checked out OK for ammonia levels) and well-circulated. I'm being careful not to allow any other tanks to become infected.

As for the newt, I'm obviously worried it might suddenly die like others have. It otherwise seems fine, but so did the others until just before they died. It's one of the ones with the most beautiful belly coloration and it would be a shame to lose it too...



I'll add some salt to the water overnight until I hear any better! Any and all advice welcome!

After removing my contact lens and finally being able to examine this newt close-up, I really can't make out any problem with the skin at all and seems those were all just air bubbles.




In fact, after taking it out of the water and putting it back in again, the bubbles mostly vanished and it seemed to have been miraculously healed!

Might have been a false emergency, but that still doesn't account for the foul smell, which I didn't get from the other two I just checked --including this one, which wouldn't cooperate with the photo shoot ;P

Hi Tim

I have see the same thing sometimes on some of my C.p newts. I do not know why that happens, but I have not ever seen any ill affects to the newts. I have never smelt anything wierd though. Maybe it happens when newts shed??

- Matt

Was the newt sticky at all? I've noticed something similar with my granulosa when it released it's toxin once. Lots of little air bubbles were trapped and it had a strange odor.

~Aaron

Thanks Matthew and Aaron...but the most amazing (and tragic) thing just happened. Only a half hour ago, the newt was swimming around in the glass cube, seemingly anxious to leave the unfamilar cube. After concluding that the whole episode may indeed have just stemmed from its release of toxin from being handled, I picked it up (gently as always!) and pplaced it on a floating artificial lilly in its main tank. But it didn't move at all, even when turned over. Now it seems to be...dead!

I've since removed it from the water to a damp paper towel so it doesn't drown. Its eyes are open but it shows no signs of life. Almost as if it had a heart attack or something. I can only guess stress, but have never experienced a newt that sensitive. There was no salt in the water either (though I had contemplated overnighting it in a salt solution if it was suffering from a fungal infection). This puts a major damper on my enthusiasm over the eggs...

Anyway, I'll definitely avoid any further unnecessary handling of the remaining four!

Could it possibly have poisoned itself with its own toxin?!?!

Matthew, there were no signs I could see of this newt about to shed. Aaron, it didn't seem sticky at all, but I did notice a funny tingling sensation in of one of my fingers after handling it. At the time, I was toying with the idea the newt might have an infection or be plagued with some kind of parasite, and was half-jokingly worried that the tingling may be the parasites boring into my own skin. It never occured to me that it might be toxin until you mentioned it!

Hi All,
I think that some amphibians can have a bad reaction to thier own toxins if the animals is unable to escape the toxin (no carbon filtration, water changes ect) however this is more usually a sign of severe stress in the animal. Sort of a last response to a bad situation.
Tim have you checked the nitrite level in the tank? Nitrite poisioning can produce the symptoms (as can a host of other things) you are seeing in these newts.
As I see bubbles on the newts, are you aging the water overnight to allow it to degass when you do water changes? (note not dechloninate, degass). Ths can also be a sign of significant temperature differences between the makeup water and the tank.
Are you sure it hasn't been run through a water softner as the ions may irritate the newts causing them to stress out.
As for the odor there was a discussion on one of the other list serves last year over how anurans smell if they are releasing toxins.
Its possible that you are having problems with an iridivirus or bacterial septicemia but you would need to get the newts necroipsied to determine the cause of death.
Just some thoughts
Ed

I am no expert, but in my experience with these newts, I have found they prefer to spend most of their time on land rather than in the water. This may attribute to the problem, offer the newts more space to get completely out of the water, and sitting on some moss maybe. I have a few of these, and they are almost never in the water in the vivarium I have them in.

Ed-sensei, the newt was in shallow water in this cube without any filtration for approximately 5 hours. It'd have to have some pretty potent toxin to knock itself out like that, I'd think! But that would certainly account for the pungent odor -- a really nasty smell that seems to be staying with me (though it might be my imagination...)

I can't see what else could have caused it so much stress other than its temporarily being in a new environment, being handled a bit and having photos taken through the glass. I do have a nitrite test kit (or was it nitrate?!). The other 4 newts seem fine, but I'll test their water anyway when I get home.

As for the bubbles/water, the water in the cube was fresh tap water that I dechlorinated before putting the newt in for observation. No major temperature difference between the two tanks. No water softener used. Didn't do anything this time I haven't done a zillion times before with my other newts without experiencing "sudden-death syndrome" (though my track record is highly questionable of late!)
I'm now thinking the toxic secretion was responsible for temporarily trapping the air bubbles...

Pikepop, none of my 30 or so Paramesotriton (and I have 5-6 varieties), tend to spend most of their time on land (land being in their case floating islands or artificial lily pads). If I had noticed a preference among them for being out of the water, I would have set up a corner shelf with moss for them. But one thing I can say in this regard is that after adding a ton of Egeria in the tank last night to encourage more egg-laying, I've noticed an apparent preference for hanging out amongst the plants over resting at the bottom of the tank! By the way, I'd like to see a pic of your Paramesotriton sometime

Hi Tim,
stress can also be caused by an inadequate setup. I don't want to sound patronizing, but all Paramesotritons that we know of live in running water like small brooks and streams. They usually don't use the upper layers of the water body for swimming like a Cynops or Triturus in a pond during spawning season would do. Not knowing exactly what habitat your newts came from, I would assume that they live on the banks and bottom of streams, depending on habitat elements like near bank vegetation or submerged vegetation in stretches with slower currents or pools (resembling the additional Egeria in your setup) but also on covers like rocks or deadwood.
There are definitely differences in behavior between different newt species and within the genus Paramesotriton as well and not all wildcaught animals adapt easily to a restricted captive environment.
The animals might even possibly be stressed by you moving around in your room (some of mine seem to retreat every time I enter my cellar, despite of keeping them for years, I don't keep your species though). Maybe you should try to provide some additional shelters into (under) which the animals are able to retreat. I use two pieces of cork-bark on top of each other as swimming "island-retreats" for example. Maybe you also shouldn't use fresh tap water, but let it "age" a bit.
Hope this helps.

Ralf

Yes, it does help a lot, Ralf. And pls never hesitate to give straightforward advice. I sometimes need to be "jolted" into action!

Indeed, I did say I had them in what I thought was an "adequate" setup, but if it was so adequate, then they probably wouldn't have died!
(well, for the record, only one of them died in this larger tank setup with the overhead filter, and that was about a day after they were moved into it -- the one that died yesterday did so after being removed from this setup, and had been randomly selected for removal, not because it seemed ill)

Currently, the overhead filter is providing the only current, but tonight I'll add a submersible Fluval at the lower level of the tank and direct the current at a set of bricks in the middle, allowing the newts to choose from several strengths of current. Also will insert a huge piece of bogwood that I've been meaning to add. Then the setup would be basically the same as that for my caudos, which SEEM to be thriving.

I am going to eventually implement what I recall you advised me to do before, namely maintain a couple empty tanks with matured, aged water. By the powers vested in me, I do hereby declare: these newts, in particular, will never again be subjected to fresh tap water!

Well, the poor newt is probably dead -- though that's what I thought last night and 16 hours later the body seems not to have deteriorated any. I've heard of newts seemingly coming back to life after being thought dead, so I'll wait just a while longer to be absolutely certain. In the meantime, so that its death was not a total waste, I'll try to squeeze some educational value from this by posting here some measurements, A bit morbid, yes, but this may help in identifying this species in the future. Wish I could have it preserved for science somewhere here in Japan...

Ralf earlier posted that P. deloustali has the longest length of any known Paramesotriton at a max. of 20cm., and the next longest is fuzhongensis at max. 16.6 cm (according to THORN & RAFFAELLI 2001?). This one measures...something like 18.5cm or so.

Hi Tim,
thanks for the measurements in spite of this sad occasion. You could preserve it in 70%-ethanol, if you are sure that its dead. This would also possibly allow molecular-genetic analysis later on (rather than using formaldehyde), depending on the state of deterioration of the DNA. Its a pity that you don't have access to any collection data though.

Ralf

Hi All,
As I think the major toxin found in these guys is a tetrodotoxin, which is very toxic (think puffer fish (fugu) and blue ring octopi bites). A very small amount can cause fatalities.
Ed

Newts are resistant to tetrodotoxin, although I don't know to what extent. Tetrodotoxin acts on ion channels, and newts own channels are TTX-resistant. Here is one research study on the subject:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9398620&dopt=Abstract

Hi Ed, I would have assumed that Mother Nature would have arranged it so that an animal that releases toxic secretions would be immune to its own toxin...but I guess that would depend on the amount released and the volume of water we're talking about.

I'm guessing this particular species of Paramesotriton might be especially sensitive to handling and may release its toxin more readily than other species...and probably in larger amounts by virtue of its size. It's no wonder this newt seemed so anxious to leave the cube!

Perhaps because of their size, they are slow and sluggish, and can be easily scooped up. But I'll avoid the temptation to do so from here on out! A Japanese friend with much more newt-keeping experience than me bought 4 of them at the same time I got mine, and just told me his are all fine and eating well. So my losses are probably all due to improper care.

Ralf, I've decided against preserving it as I still have 3 more "hainanensis" in addition to the oddly-colored one that was sold as "asperrimus"
So to update the "body count", I've lost 3 "hainanensis" and 1 "asperrimus". Any more and they all go to this Japanese friend of mine! Having said that, I'm pretty satisfied with the changes I've made to their setup.

Hi Jen and Tim,
Jen, I checked the abstract that you listed (and wished I had a subscription to read the entire article to make sure I had my conclusions correct but here goes). They used a LC50 concentration of tetrodotoxin to test the resistance of the cells to the toxin. LC50 is defined as the concentration of a substance dissolved in air or water that will kill 50% of the test animals in four hours. So while the newts are resistant to the toxin, I still think that given that it was in a static amount of water and could not escape it could easily have poisioned itself. I have seen this happen with Bufo species (granted they do not have tetrodotoxins but thier own mix of alkaloids).
Puffers are also resistant to tetrodotoxins but have been known to wipe thier tank out and take themselves out at the same time. with a secretion of tetrodotoxin. Mother Nature does not always make the animal totally resistant to its own toxin (I've also seen rattlesnakes under anesthesia bite themselves as they recover and die from envenomation (Crotalus. d. durissus).
Tim try rinsing the newt several times with fresh water and putting it somewhere cool overnight. (maybe rinsing it again later) Newts can survive pretty severe oxygen debts and if the tetrodotoxin (I can't remember off the top of my head) isn't an irreversiable binder to the ion channels your newt may still come around.
Ed

Very interesting info, Ed. Since it looked "alive but lifeless," that's exactly what I did last night, changed the water and put it outside on the balcony where it's cold because I recall reading once about how a seemingly dead newt had recovered after being placed for a while in the refrigerator. I worry though as I rushed out of the house for work this morning without checking the newt, and Tokyo is overrun these days with these really huge and aggressive crows, in which case I'd feel sorry for the newt but also sorry for the poisoned crow!

Hi Jen, sorry but I somehow overlooked your post when responding to Ed's.

Interesting to hear how the amino acid sequences of SS2 regions of repeats II, III and IV of nRNaCh are identical to those of TTX-sensitive Na+ channels, but one amino acid in SS2 of repeat I of nRNaCh is different.

I've just one question though: what does this mean...in English?!
But yes, it does seem newts are resistant to tetrodotoxin...if only to a certain extent!

I'm really starting to wonder if this newt may actually still be alive as I was re-reading today a fascinating article I'd seen before about certain populations of western garter snake that feed on rough-skinned newts and "are the only animals known to be resistant to tetrodotoxin". It said that after devouring a newt, the snake is effectively immobilized for up to 6 hours and a TTX variant has been identified as Haitian voodoo's "zombie" drug"

http://www.frogs.org/news/article.asp?InfoResourceID=1331

I was planning on a night out on the town but think I'll rush home after work to see if I can't get to this poor newt before the crows do!

Haven't made it home yet but it's just occurred to be that the newt in question is now in a shallow tub of water whereas before it was on wet paper towels. If it IS immobilized AND in water, would it not then drown or die from lack of oxygen?

Moot point as it has passed on...
But I'm still thinking it may have been barely alive as of yesterday, though immobilized.