Tank size for 6 T. verrucosus

I have 6 T. verrucosus I've been keeping on land since about Christmas. They are doing well and growing nicely. I think it is high time I put them in the water. What size tank would you use for a permanent set up for 6 T. verrucosus? I was thinking somewhere between a 20 gallon long and a 40 gallon breeder tank.
Thanks

Michael
I think its important to give more than the bare minimum for tank size. Verrucosus excrete a lot of waste, and so a larger tank woul allow more buffer against build up of ammonia. I keep my 5 adults in a 4ftX18inchhighX18inchback aquarium. There is about 12 inches of water depth. They will do OK in a smaller tank, but that requires much more frequent water changes - mine got a foot infection in a smaller tank cos I missed one water change...
Chris

Hi Chris,
I am unconvinced as to the cause and effect here with the foot infection. Poor water quality can contribute to infections but unless there is a large amount of decaying food in the tank or that this an extremenly sensitive species, missing/delaying one water change should not immunosuppresse the newt to this extent. I would strongly suspect another cofactor such an injury (maybe small enough to not be visible) or other item to be involved.
Ed

Ed
I didn't mean that it was the sole factor, but that it was a contributor to the infection. I think its very unlikely that every animal had an injury on evry foot. 4 out of the 5 got the infection. Aimee Crombie had a similar thing with axolotls, and she found out that it was bacteria harboured in algae on the bottom of the tank. If this is possible, I suspect that that was the cause....anyway, my point was, the bigger the better tank wise (as long as it is feasible to maintain)
Chris

Hi Chris,
Okay, your post wasn't clear on that subject.
Do you know the species of bacteria Aimee had identified? (as I am now curious) The reason I ask is that most of the bacterial species that affect amphibians are normally part of the flora and fauna located in the habitats we set up for the amphibians. The bacteria do not normally affect the amphibians until some stressor allows the bacteria to attack the amphibian.
And FWIW I would not rule out feeding reactions resulting in bites to the limbs....
Ed

I think when they reach full size, a 20-long would be a bit cramped for 6 of them. I have 5 T. karelinii (each 5.5 - 6.5 inches long) in a 20-long and I wouldn't want to put another one in there. I think either a standard 30 gal (36x12x18 inches) or a 40 breeder (36x18x18) would be good.

Ed
sorry for the miscommunication...:/ I am not sure about the bacteria species, all I know is that Aimee (and possibly me) had a problem ith them. They came from the brown diatom type algae.
You may well be right about feeding injuries...another reason why with such aggressive feeders, a larger tank is better - they can spread out a bit and keep out of each others way.
Chris

Hi Chris,
I am not arguing the tank size (as I have not kept this species, T. shanjing yes). I was just concerned about your phrasing as this was phrased in a manner that often makes the rounds as one of those do this or else absolutes on other forums.
So it was confirmed that it was bacterial in origin and not the result of other possible more esoteric causes such as poisioning from the diatoms or cyanobacteria?

Ed

Hi,
Now you have gotten me interested too!
How did she find out that algae harboured the bacteria that infected her newts??
Anyway it seems kind of odd to me since an algae cell is quite different from an animal cell(or the extracellular "space" of an animal) and I would suspect that a bacteria that can't infect both systems. Just speculating though, would be nice to hear more.

Hi Jesper,
Aquatic fauna and flora do not live in isolated colonies (oe even in monocultures except in the most extreme circumstances) but in commingled "patches". This goes for algal mats or even the mats of bacteria that are found in some habitats.
Ed
Ed

Thanks for your input. I'll probably order a tank from glasscages.com and pick it up at the Hamburg, Pa show on June 5. I'm thinking of a 40 gallon but might get a 33 gallon. The 33 gallon is 48" x 12.5" x 13" It will be easier to find a stand for. I want to get a stand that will take 2 large tanks on it. I have to start looking. I find the iron stands more practical.

I think I misunderstood, I interpreted harbouring as if we are talking about an intracellular bacteria hosted by diatoms.

I can understand if we are talking about bacteria that lives in symbiotic or perhaps parasitic relationship with the algae then infects a newt opportunistically. But that would be a bacteria that is part of the newts normal external flora(ie since diatoms are).

Btw are there bacteria that can infect both plant cells and animal cells?

Jen's advice is sound, though I would stress that a 36"x12"x12" (90x30x30 cm) tank is the absolute minimum for long term housing of 6 adult verrucosus, and I'm assuming it's all aquatic with just an island.

I once kept 6 (3 pairs) in a 24"x12"x15" (60x30x30cm) tank for several months but that was only out of necessity. I had no problems though for what it's worth.

Right now I maintain 3 large females in the tank size just mentioned, along with a (seemingly) paedomorphic juvenile (lovely gills, I must take a photo) in a breeding trap, and I maintain 2 adult males in an 18"x10"x10" (45x25x25 cm) tank.

The females have a island on which they can all fit comfortably. The males don't have an island. The females frequently need large water changes because of the amount of food they eat and waste they produce in their tank.

My own view on the foot infection is that it wasn't due to water conditions alone - there was another serious something wrong at the same time, so I suppose I'm with Ed on this.

Actually, funny story about the breeding trap larva. He/she/it has been living in there since the end of its first month of life - I found it in the adult tank (when there were males resident) at a decent size - 2 cm. I removed it to the breeding trap and it has lived there since, becoming _very_ tame. The funny story is that on 3 separate occasions I have come into the room and found one of the females in the breeding trap looking guilty, with no larva present. How they get into the trap is beyond me, but the best part is that every single time they get into the trap the larva must go mad and swim for the water surface, breaking out and diving into the main tank area. Each of the 3 times I've found it hiding in the thick java moss of the main tank. The third time it happened I wasn't worried at all, I just went rummaging in the weed and there he/she/it was, as expected.

These animals never cease to surprise and amuse me.

OK
to answer all the questions from Ed and Jesper
I don't know very much about the nature of the bacteria, only that Aimee told me she had a problem with this condition, and I assumed the same had happened in my tank. I haven't had the cause confirmed, but found that the 'infection' responded well and quickly to Myxazin anti-bacterial agent.
It could well have been secondary infection in inflammation caused by diatom poisoning, or cyanobacteria, as Ed said.
The truth is that I really don't know, but the animals are well now.
Chris

Hi Chris,
FYI Myxazin claims to not affect the biological filtration (gram negative bacteria). If this is true it should also not affect a large number of bacterial infectious agents as these are also gram negative.
I would consider this to have suspect claims to either its effectiveness or to its harmlessness to the biological filter.

Ed

Hi John,
Why do you keep the sexes separated? Do they fight? I'm figuring out how to swap tanks around to accomodate everything.
Michael

hello everybody,
there seems to be some confusion about myxazin here. This product is a superbroad spectrum antiseptic containing many component chemicals which have an effect on just about all kinds of bacteria, but at the doses used do not harm filter bacteria according to Waterlife, the manufacturers. It is particularly effective against Pseudomonads and Vibrios, but as it is an antiseptic it does not have a significant systemic effect on amphibia in the tank, in other words it is primarily an aquarium treatment rather than an animal treatment, and helps prevent infections rather than curing them.

Hi Andrew,
I have no confusion about the Myxazin. I have serious doubts about any "broad spectrum" antibiotic that is effective against one group of gram negative bacteria but not another (unless one group has developed resistance but I find this hard to accept as an explanation that filter bacteria are resistant and Pseudomonads are not as these are typically commensuals in the filter material (as well as also being gram negative)).
If it does not have a significant systemic effect then I am even more skeptical about its effectiveness in treating animals as this indicates that it is inefficent in being absorbed and as a consequence cannot reach theraputic levels in the tissues.
Treating the aquarium is ineffective as the bacteria you have listed it as being effective against will rapidly recolonize the aquarium (assuming there was an 100% eradication (very unlikely) from the aquarium. (They are ubiquitous in all aquatic or soil containing systems).

Ed

Ed,

Myxazin is an "antiseptic" - can't remember whether it's based on methylene blue or malachite green offhand, but it's one or the other. It does not contain any antibiotics, which are not available without a prescription in the UK.

Hi Alan,
I suspect that I am using antibiotic in too broad a term here instead of the more narrowly defined definition of an antibacterial agent that is derived from a fungus, bacteria or other live organism..... (but there is some support from the thesaurus for my usage.....).

Do I know you from frognet?

Ed