And then there were none...

The last of my T.verrucosus just died. Why? I wish I knew. Animals (all descendants of John Clare's originals) are fine, aquatic, begging at front of tank for food, then become terrestrial and are dead within 48 hours. No external symptoms. They have been kept in a 60x45x42cm tank at around 20 degrees for months. Sand substrate (1mm grain size), bogwood, lots of plants, bubble-up filter. Water quality is excellent. I know the animals swallow some sand since it is present in their faeces, but this has not been a problem for the last 6 months, and all four of my verrucosus died within three weeks, so I am excluding this as a likely cause.

Most likely reason? In December, I acquired some Paramesotriton fungzhongensis(?), all but one of which died of an ulcerative disease which I suspect is only a symptom of an underlying problem. Did the "Paramesotriton plague" cross to my Tylototritons?
Anyone else seen anything like this?

(For all those awaiting C.orientalis eggs from me, these animals are kept in a separate room and have no contact with equipment or other materials from the "infected" room).

Hi Alan,
I had some problems with cynops orientalis last year, all but one of my animals died during the progression of an ulcerative disease. It was quite obvious that the ulcers were a secondary effect of a systemic bacterial infection. The animals got the infection in a pet shop who donated the ill animals to me in shear desperation, I got three and managed to save one by medication in the last minute. In the pet shop all the animals died of bloat. IE a systemic infection can produce quite different symptoms in the same species which only makes it more likely that the symptoms will vary if the infection is spread between species. I would bet that your guess is a good one.

I think your premise is sound but for the length of time it took for the animals to succumb - there's too much of a lag there for my liking. I (thankfully) have never had these problems with anything except twice with axolotls. Other than my condolences I don't think there's much else I can offer you .

I didn't read that they died within 48 hours, my orientalis survived for some time but gradually got worse. In 48 hours you obviously have no chance to save them at all. It's tricky with diseases that give rise to no symptoms during the progression. The first thing I think of out of that perspective is a young viral disease, I have never heard of newts struck by viral infections though.

Are you going to have the corpses examinated?

I really think we should try to do a fairly objective review of our experiences of illnesses and let a herp vet look through it and comment on stuff. I would really value an interview with a herp vet specialized on amphibians. We have Swedens only university training vets here in Uppsala, I'm going to call them to see if they've got someone knowledgable there.

Alan, there is a (possibly) similar story in:
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/catastrophes.shtml
I think there is a good chance that it was something infectious. The lag does seem odd, but not impossible.

Thanks everyone. Just to clarify a little. I originally acquired the Paramesotriton in December, but the last one only died in February. I suspect the "infection" was transferred by my hands or by equipment (siphon, etc) before I was aware of the risk.
I did attempt to treat the Paramesotriton with a broad spectrum antibiotic approach but there was no response. There are no external symptoms on the verrucosus at all, although obviously they bloat after death. The worst thing about all of this is that I'm really none the wiser.

Which broad spectrum antibiotic did you use?

Does it have to be a bacterium though? I think that something that can knock out a newt in such a short period of time as you describe for the verrucosus may be a virus. I would think Alan that you'd know better than most of us on this topic though .

Jesper: tetracycline/kanamycin cocktail.

John: I think the ulcers, which are undoubtedly bacterial, are a symptom, not the disease itself. The ulcers in some of the animals did resolve with antibiotic treatment, but they still died.
There was a thread here a couple of weeks back which veered towards discussing this (sorry, can't find it now). At that point, my working theory was that the mistreatment the animals receive before they are bought (months of malnutrition, crowding and being maintained at tropical temperatures) resulted in immunosuppression and disease. Unfortunately, that doesn't cover "it" (if there is an "it") spreading to other animals which have been in my care for months. So, best guess at the present time is a viral disease, BUT: this is just a guess, no evidence. Could explain the high infectivity.

I concur with your reasoning Alan.

Aeromonad and pseudomonad infections can be rapid and fairly asymptomatic in amphibians. (You do not need a full presentation of redleg to have death occur). This could also explain the lag as these bacteria are everywhere and opportunistic.
However without a necropsy, we can only guess.
Sorry to hear about losing them.
Ed

Hi everyone,
What needs to be bourne in mind when treating infections is that the use of antibiotics can itself cause superinfections. In other words you have to be very careful that you are aware of all the other strains of bacteria and fungi that you have growing in your setups even if they are present in only very low numbers. What happens is the use of the antibiotics selects for resistant strains (very often Pseudomonad species) which then multiply in huge numbers because all of the sensitive competing strains have been wiped out by the antibiotics. These resistant strains then infect through the open wounds left by the previous primary infection and cause rapid death through septicaemia. You need to use an antibiotic reliably effective against Pseudomonas, and unfortunately these all have to be injected.
You also have to bear in mind the possibility of fungal superinfections for similar reasons.
I hope this information is of some use to you.

andrew read


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