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Interesting Crocs

M

matthew

Guest
Just wanted to mention an interesting sight at a local exotic petshop. Popped in there yesterday and saw their new verrucosus.

They seem like the most bizarre halfway house between (my idea of) verrucosus and (my idea of) shanjing.

They are as big as my large adult Him Crocs but not as fat. The overall gross body size and shape is Him Croc.

But the bumps on the sides (sorry, don't know a name for these) and the look of the tail is s-o-o-o-h much like my Emperors.

Anyway, the point is that when I first read the Him Croc care sheet I thought it odd that the two species were once considered to be the same animal. How could anyone confuse that with this I'd tell myself, as I moved between my Crocs and my Emps? Now I see how!!!

(By the way, the animals in question are WC from Vietnam. They are being kept terrestrially with a small-ish water bowl.)
 

mike

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OK, I'll start the avalance by asking, where is this shop? And (B), any chance of a picture?
 
M

matthew

Guest
Not quite sure where that avalanche went Mike, but thanks for your interest.

The shop is Southcoast Exotics in Hampshire.

(I guess the only chance of a picture is if I buy 'em and go through with my plan of getting / borrowing a digital camera. Not sure I've the space, time or electrical sockets left for another set-up, unless they are fire sals, but I've said that before...)
 
J

jesper

Guest
Well I would also be very interested in a photo, as for the avalanche I would say it will come....
Maybe a little later since there's been a lot of talk about a bright form of verrucosus I believe John Clare calls it X in a very old post - People probably assume this is the one you are talking about or something like it - You would surely get the avalanche if you confirmed what you say with photos
happy.gif


Cheers and thanks for sharing the info!
/Jesper
 
M

mattias

Guest
Very interesting. A few weeks ago a came across 7 specimens of the same. A form of T. shanjing/verrocosus-like creatures new for me except from pictures.

I have, as Jesper, also long been wondering about the curiousity of naming the two seemingly much deterred forms as the same species. How anyone in the first place could have missed the differences. And since I do not understand much chinese I can not take in the literature fully.

But there seems to be a intermediate form between the extremes of clearly T. shanjing and T. verrucosus. It could be a unnamed species, a subspecies of T. verrucosus or a hybrid. I am looking forward to see studies about this in the future.

I have specimens of the light form in these pictures:

http://www.livingunderworld.org/caudata/database/salamandridae/tylototriton/shanjing/

A formidable site, anyway!

/M
 
M

mattias

Guest
They were bought in Malmö, Sweden. Then all in Sweden knows where. I was told they were bought from German breeders. I doubt anyone would sell so many adults at the same time though.

/M
 
P

philipp

Guest
Hi all
a question especially to swedish users:
This trading person in Malmö often appears with his son and imports regularly from China and Africa? Is this person very active in selling highly poisonous snakes too?
If it´s the same person i think of, i had a lot to do with saving some reptiles and Urodeles, sold and imported by that family, showing very bad conditions. I just bought some of those specimens, showing at least little signs of life, and fought for at least thre months for them, in one case i even still have to. It´s not possible that there are that many adult cb´s sold in germany these days. Those animals of that "verrucosus-komplex" unfortunately are heavily sold as Wcs nearly everywhere at the moment.
It´s absolutely sad to see such tragedies.
Greets,
Philipp
 
M

mattias

Guest
I now about the family you are mentioning, but the place I bought the animals in is a big herpetological store, not the mentioned importers/private traders.

The animals were in quite good condition, actually, which surprised me. All Tylototriton obtained through the pet trade in my experiences usually do not live for long because of the delicate needs of the species, and mistreats during shipping etc. But these seems to be healthy.

It would be very interesting to know more about the distribution of this paler form of 'T. verrucosus'. Any suggestions to literature?

/M
 
P

philipp

Guest
Hi all
Well it´s hard to suggest literature, because there is a lot, especially in local herpetological press. But the main problem is that indian scientists described indian verrucosus, chinese persons chinese forms and so on. Because of it´s huge range, you have to talk of "verrucosus-komplex". At least in Thailand, three different variations can be found. Second problem is, that nobody exactly knows, where those pet trade animals actually come from, but some imports may be known from northern myanmar, traded via thailand. So the trader will talk of thailand as origin. Unfortunately, these animals do well even by being mistreated. It´s really hard to destroy them:D
And it opens the doors for big numbers of imported animals,.......
There isn´t only one paler form!
Greets,
Philipp
 
M

mattias

Guest
Hi Philipp.
Well, I do not really know what you mean with local herpetological press, but I do not understand mandarin or any other chinese languages. So, perhaps you have some references in english?

The information about three different forms in Thailand for example, do you have a reference to that that I can find?

I figure that you are right about the statement that T. verrucosus probably should be considered a species-complex, since the distribution are very wide indeed, and because of the montainous areas. Gene flow would be quite restricted in such environments with that kind of slowly dispersal animals.

My experience with T. shanjing in pet trade is that they are very sensitive, but this is not the case with T. verrucosus? They are more hardy animals, you mean?

Please inform me more about the different forms of T. verrucosus and T. shanjing.

Best regards
Mattias
 
P

philipp

Guest
Hi Mattias
Of course i do have references for those various forms in thailand. A friend of mine is regulary visiting this country and he found two of those forms himself. With "local herpetological press", i mean journals like e.g. the "journal of Bombay Herpetological Society" or the "Acta Herpetologica Sinica", plus Classics like "Hrpetologica", "Herpetozoa" or Publications of asian Museums, Universities or whatever.
I actually wrote a list of what i got either as copies or as originals, which i can send you via email, if you drop me one. T.shanjing was and unfortunately still is, imported from china, but not directly, but via different traders, where they are kept for some time.
Especially the United States are still heavily supporting that sell-out, what´s very sad for such a big country.There´s still a market, though breeding them isn´t very complicated.Those which survive the procedure of becoming a trading item, are very hardy newts.But they are a very small number to what made the import once. There are still to many dying. To correct our question, those verrucosus that are imported right now, make up very hardy newts, though there are always victims that don´t do well with their situation,.....
Yes, you have to talk of "verrucosus-komplex" at the moment, at least up to the time, there´s a revision of that "species".But this will become hard work, just think about the large variety of e.g. Bernardezi-Fire-Salamanders, that even show various forms depending on from which valley they are,.....Another fact is that there are some big mountains right in the area, "T.verrucosus" is found, so natural barriers cause specification too.
Within T.verrucosus, there should be at least subspecies, but i even think of species.
Remains big fun, at least very interesting articles:D
T.shanjing is a mess as a species too, it even isn´t that sure. I know somebody who told me about differences between lowland and highland forms of shanjing in Yunnan.
I´ll try to answer soon, but got a lot round my head these days,....
Greets,
Philipp
P.S. do you know of actual activities of that "family" in Malmö we already discussed?As you know i am very interested in asian skinks and those people don´t care if nearly all of their mostly cheap animals die. So i would be happy to have someone to keep his eyes open for such poor animals!
 
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