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greg
11th October 2003, 23:47
At kingsnake.com right now there is a vendor selling Triturus marmoratus and a few other goodies for some rather interesting prices. I'm especially surprised to see the price on some of the Salamandra. now... granted... they are not available widely in the U.S. so I guess they can charge whatever. and I think most are CB so there's that investment of time and resources as well... but are these numbers realistic?

Greg

travis
12th October 2003, 00:45
I wondered the same myself. I would agree those prices are too high. I don't think that the Salamandra are captive bred(atleast not the giglioli) and even if they were that wouldn't warrant the price they are asking. If someone is willing to pay that price then I am shure they will keep asking for that much...but so far it looks like there haven't been any takers.
-Travis

erik
12th October 2003, 01:23
I would agree that the giglioli(and maybe the others) are probably wild caught. At least giglioli has never been bred in the U.S. that I am aware of.

I have raised cb Salamandra before from tiny babies to adults and it takes 4-6 years to get them to adult size/maturity. Thats alot of time and effort, so if someone wants to ask those kinds of prices, I offer no criticism. Also these are dealers we are talking about, it is their job(good or bad) to make a living selling the herps we all love. It would be a different story(hopefully) with an exchange or sale between friends.

nate
12th October 2003, 02:55
I take a different stance here...those lucrative prices only encourage additional poaching of wild populations. I think those prices are a few notches beyond unreasonable and creeping into insane.

greg
12th October 2003, 04:04
On the other hand, Nate... nobody is gonna put a $600 salamander on a hotrock or in with an oscar. I hope.

and they might bother breeding it if it is worth the $$.

I know most of us breed things 'cause we like them. And I know most of us have way more invested just in the water bill than we can ever get for the CB offspring. Which is why most caudates sold in pet stores in the US trade still "speak with an accent" and are looking for a green card.... along with their little wormie stow-aways.

Maybe... just maybe... a high cost item like this raises awareness and inspires some folks to actually BREED red-spotted newts rather than rip them out of ponds by the hundreds for the pet trade.

I don't know. It's hard to stomach looking at a cool critter and thinking of a dollar sign. We all do it though... but often in reverse. Not what is it worth to sell.. but how much it'll cost to get. I typically view that though not as capitalism gone crazy, but as a finders fee. I'd just rather more people "find" CB than WC.

elisabeth
12th October 2003, 14:15
I agree with you Greg, especially about raising awareness and inspiring people to breed them. Although, Nate has a point too.
Maybe greed and opportunity is a factor here. I can charge that price, therefore I will, and maybe some rich lunatic will actually pay that much.
Hey, if you all had money to burn, wouldn't you?http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/angry.gif

nate
12th October 2003, 16:50
Well, you guys bring up a hypothetical point that has not been validated to any large extent in the world yet. I think all we have to do is look at the current examples already out there. Tons of herps enjoy legal protection and captive breeding efforts yet still are relentelessly poached. Dart frogs, rosy boas, kingsnakes, hellbenders, bog turtles...on and on and on. Time has proven again and again, the worst thing you can do for an animal (which has no value other than pet value) is attach a large price tag. Newts and salamanders have been relatively safe from this so far (except Cryptobranchids) due to limited pet interest, but that is beginning to change.

The bottom line is this: If an animal is going to fetch you 600$, why spend several years and several hundred dollars trying to breed and raise them when you can snag 100+ adults in a night?

These aren't the first newts or salamanders offered here for large amounts of money. There have been lots of Triturus, Salamandra, Tylototriton, P. poireti, Bolitoglossa, hellbenders, Neurergus, etc. sold here in the states. So where's all the captive breeding results from those high prices? Where is their impact on the wc pet trade? I sure haven't seen it.

greg
12th October 2003, 21:49
My point isn't that the poachers or LEGAL collectors won't go for a $600 animal in the wild. my point is that they go for 600+ 50cent animals every night yet people typically won't bother to breed that species because it is too cheap. But people will bother to breed the $600 animal because there a chance of breaking even.

How does the tropical fish world work? Most of the common aquarium fish are either aquacultured or are from essentially fenced in areas of river, from what I understand. though the Cardinal tetras at your local pet store may not have hatched in a tank, they were at least not ripped from the rainforest every day.... or at least if they were there were some fisheries-style controls in place to prevent over-harvest. Such things are also in effect in some states for things like bull frog or certain bait salamanders. I know this because when I apply for research permits in those places I have to decipher their laws to determine if my research requires a commercial permit because technically I get paid to do this (usually the answer is no... but in some cases it is too fuzzy to say for sure, so i default to what they tell me).

are there commercial breeders for red-spotted newt? What about some non-caudates like green anoles or house geckos.

High $$ species that are captive bred are still taken from the wild. I agree entirely. But I have to think that if we were able to get accurate data we'd see that the species widely bred are not as widely captured from the wild as are things like curly-tail lizards.

I think there are cases where this is perhaps clear-cut within the lizard realm. leopard geckos do come in as WC from time to time, but usually from interesting places. the numbers produced in captivity way out-number those imported as wild caught. however, I can probably count on 1 hand the number of people breeding any of the 6 most common "house gecko" species, yet they are sold with price breaks in thousand lots!... but within1 month of hatching a baby house gecko eats more than the wholesale price it will fetch.

My point is... they should all receive the same attention regardless of $$. but we all know that doesn't happen.

greg

craig
27th October 2003, 13:20
HI all, just to let you know, the truth is the S.atra were all sold to a dealer in Europe for around half the prices offered. Still $200-$250 usd an atra is alot of cash and are now being sold again for around $400 usd. On the cb status, according to a contact, no none of them are cb, with the giglioli and atra anyways.The problem for legal enforcement when importing herps in general is the lack of knowledge on the customs side. We through the community can have an idea of how likely cb status and identity is ect...but the training most custom officials receive in herp related interests let alone caudates is usually zero%/nil!So claiming your importing cb caudates when in fact they are WC is logistically easy if the party you are receiving them from is willing to back the lie.Hence probably the reason also for the higher price tag on both ends.
Craig