Marbled subspecies

From what I Have seen the marbled newt has two subspecies: the nominated form, and the Pygmy Marbled newt. I have seen many pictures of both subspecies, but I can never seem to tell the difference. Is the only difference the size of each subspecies? Thanks for your help.

Ryan

I'm not certain, but I think these may have been recently separated taxonomically into two species Triturus marmoratus and Triturus pygmaeus. Anyway, apart from the size difference, pygmaeus is predominantly green in colour with just relatively small irregular areas of black. Marmoratus has less green and more black. The black areas are more "regular" in marmoratus and much larger.

Here are 4 photos, 2 of each species. Pygmaeus is on the left, marmoratus on the right. Both of these individuals are juveniles.

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By the way, does the top right image look familiar? No? Look at the Caudata.org logo.

Thanks for your help. Is it final that the 2 subspecies were separated?

Ryan

I tried to find evidence that "pygmaeus" was separated from "marmoratus" as a species in its own right, but the only thing I can find is spanish text referring to "Triturus pygmaeus" but with no justification for this taxonomy. I am reasonably certain that I have read this at an authoritative source, I just can't remember where or when. If it has been separated, it was only in the least 3 or 4 years, hence why it's not showing up in literature and consequently the Internet (compare to the Tylototriton shanjing and Tylototriton verrucosus muddle that's still perpetuated 6 years after separation).

Regarding differences, here's more information for you taken from http://www.darkwave.co.uk/~caleb (incidentally, this is all based on Richard Griffiths' book about the Newts and Salamanders of Europe):

"T. m. marmoratus
The nominate subspecies is distributed over the French part of this species' range, and also over the northern half of Iberia. The belly colouration of this subspecies is blackish with fine
white dots. The breeding male has a high crest, which is much lower at the base of the tail, though it widens again on the tail itself.

T. m. pygmaeus
This subspecies is a dwarf form, usually reaching around 11 cm. in total length. This form exhibits different belly colouration; the ventral surface is creamy yellow with large black spots,
and small white spots. In addition, the crest of the breeding male is lower, and dips only slightly at the base of the tail. In the Donana National Park in southern Spain, a population has
been found that is even smaller than usual for this subspecies; adults averaged 7.7 cm. total length.
Some authorities believe that T. m. pygmaeus may be a valid species, T. pygmaeus."

-John

I´m spanish, and I have read a recent book (now, i don´t remember the name), and in this book they are separated. Now, the Triturus marmoratus pygmaeus is called directly Triturus pygmaeus. It sound me strange.

Then, I tell you the name of the book (in spanish) and the differences between the two species that are in the book. I'll try to translate it to english .

You're so lucky because here we can´t maintain this fantastic animal, is ilegal. I think that it is the most beautiful newt of Spain, and of course, Salamandra salamandra fastuosa the best salamander

bye

Yes, they are two species, not subspecies.

Here is the reference:
you can give you more literature information if you want, but contact me directly. I am the coördinator of the 'German'Triturus pygmaeus studbook (see on www.agurodela.de).
Sergé Bogaerts

GARCIA-PARIS, M, B. ARANO & P. HERRERO, 2001. Molecular characterisation of the contact zone between Triturus pygmaeus and T. marmoratus (Caudata: Salamandridae) in central Spain and their taxonomic assessment. Rev. Esp. Herp. 15: 115-126.

the top right photo is a very nice picture indeed, no wonder you took it for your logo! too bad the colours are gone though

Well, this is very controversial. Some of Spanish people disagree on making two different species. Those simplify colour varieties between both ‘species’ cannot be taken as a rule of thumb, coloration varies very much along the Spanish range and even size. In Catalunya, exist (may be not anymore since people introduce fishes in their natural breeding pound) some areas with specimens completely green, no black, and the rest of the population was like t.pygmeus in coloration though bigger than normal t.marmoratus. Even in Doñana people found males specimens up to 11 cm which grow up to 14-15 cm in captivity (mortality, diet… may pay a role on that) whereas it has been said that is the smallest variety. Crest and bellies also varies along the Spanish range. There are so many sources of populations that vary from the profile of both ‘species’. I would like to share those articles and contrast them with Spanish sources and colleagues.

I'll get a large group of Marmoratus tomorrow!

It's strange to think that the newly separated species would be called simply pygmaeus, when there are many physically smaller Triturus newts around. I would have imagined the Linnaen (?) society would have chosen a more appropriate description in relation to the genus as a whole,and the individual species, rather than just dropping the marmoratus bit.

Triturus Marmoratus Pygmaeus would sound more appropriate indeed, if thats what you mean.

I would have thought T. iberiensis would be more appropriate, but then what do I know (certainly no Latin)

Making names has rules. You can find them in handbooks published by the Zoological Taxonomical Commission. Priority is one of the first rules. That means if someone (in this case Dr. Willy Wolterstorff in 1905) has given a variety or form of species a name, then when this form is raised to subspecies (and now full species) this name stays. It has nothing to do with that there are smaller newts around.
Besides that the description of the first Triturus marmoratus forma pygmaeus by Wolterstorff was indeed based on very smaal specimen. As we now know in Cadiz these animals can already reproduce afther one year, at a very small size (also in Doñana). That in the wider part of their distribution and in captivity they can grow larger (up to 14 cm) doesn't change this historical knowledge.
And I think that Triturus pygmaeus is a very well defnied subspecies, not only of their different coloration, but also because of the differences in crest height and differences in breeding behaviour.
Please read the scientific literature before making judgements. As coordinator of the Molch-Register (see www.ag-urodela.de under Molch Register) I am always willing to give you more information.

Sergé

Yup, it's the International Code for Zoological Nomenclature - like any other legislative text it's not exactly a thrilling read though... ;o)

These rules are there to unequivocally establish which name has to be used for a certain taxon (as delimited by the user). Wether the names coined in any original description are really appropriate isn't a factor and there are loads of taxa with completely misleading names (e.g. sinensis for a species thought to have originated from China but rather living in South America; wrong colors due to discolored museum specimens, etc. pp.)! However, a rose is a rose by any other name...

(Message edited by kai on September 24, 2003)

As I said, what do I know. However thank you Serge and Kai for that bit of enlightenment into taxonomy. I certainly was unaware of the naming procedure when sub-species were raised to full species status. I wonder if the aforementioned Dr Woltestorff (should he still be alive) is regretting not naming the subspecies T. marmoratus woltestorffii.

Thanks again
Neil